Down to the Rapture

It is The Flying Spaghetti Monster...NOT the flying Tuna monster. He does not like it when you take His name in vain. You would not want to suffer His wrath. Chew your food into little bites next time you eat spaghetti !!! :blink:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(huskers @ Feb 18 2007, 08:05 AM) [snapback]392320[/snapback]</div>

I didn't want to encourage bastardization of the spaghetti monster faith, so I was trying to point TJ in the direction of the yet to be tapped Tuna. We didn't want to unload our problem onto your noodly faith.

I hope you and the spaghetti monster see this as an act of kindness. :blink:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Feb 18 2007, 09:36 AM) [snapback]392325[/snapback]</div>

Act of kindness accepted !!! B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Feb 18 2007, 09:44 AM) [snapback]392318[/snapback]</div>

This is what I don't get. It's clear to me that there's a rather ample disparity of what's acceptable to various Christians. For instance, I know that your opposed to abortion while you support varying degrees of war. Some Christians would probably tell you that you're less than Christian because you support the potential killing of innocent human beings. You keep asking us to open up our heart to God and yet you seemed closed to the belief that you may not be hearing your God's message in the manner in which it was intended. There was one post in this thread in which you seemed to have a more humbled attitude, accepting that you don't know all the answers. I'll make you a deal (no sarcasm intended here). I'll continue to question whether or not my lack of belief in your God is valid. I'll keep my mind and heart open to the possibility and existence of your God. All I ask is that you soften your delivery a bit, stop trying to impose upon others and judge other based on what you believe God expects from all his followers and try to be open minded that there may be another acceptable manner in which you can "believe". I have reference numerous contradictions with your God, and many others have referenced numerous contradictions within the Bible. It's unclear to me how any one person interpreting all of this can have a crystal clear belief that they now how to perceive and enact these messages. So Daron, please open your heart and your mind just a little. I have seen from one of your posts that this is within you. After all, from what I'm to understand it's not for Christians to judge others, this will rest on the shoulder's of God on their judgment day.

 

I just wanted to point out a caution.

By witnessing the "intense blindness, driven with perversion, lust, and passion, its obvious to us who peer inward thousands of years ago, to see what still happens today.

These men thought they were driven of thier "own" ideas, thoughts and desires, when it didn't even have rational connections?...

After being struck comepletely blind, a rational man would have realized that the finger of God has touched them and and should fall on thier face and repent knowing they are in the the presence of Angels and God...

But instead they still "groped" for the door to finish finalizing the fullfilling of thier perverted lust...

Do you think they were "driven" by normal passion and God given natural lusts or do you think the Devil was in thier hearts?

Second question... does this sound like anyone you know today?


(Gen 19:5 NKJV) And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally."

(Gen 19:6 NKJV) So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him,

(Gen 19:7 NKJV) and said, "Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly!

(Gen 19:8 NKJV) "See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof."

(Gen 19:9 NKJV) And they said, "Stand back!" Then they said, "This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them." So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door. (they were offended at the correction of the Lord and took it as an insult that they didn't have the right to be judged and in turn they would punish them.... isn't this allot of the prevalant attitiude today on this forum?)

(Gen 19:10 NKJV) But the men reached out their hands and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door.

(Gen 19:11 NKJV) And <span style="color:#000099">they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door. (Weary trying to find the door after being struck blind!.... <span style="color:#cc0000">Wow!.... talk about demonic robots driven with the spirit of satan and evil and perversion!... sex crimes "never" make sense...they are demonic.</span></span>

(Gen 19:12 NKJV) Then the men said to Lot, "Have you anyone else here? Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in the city; take them out of this place!

(Gen 19:13 NKJV) "For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it."

(Gen 19:14 NKJV) So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who had married his daughters, and said, "Get up, get out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city!" But to his sons-in-law he seemed to be joking.

(Gen 19:15 NKJV) When the morning dawned, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, "Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city."

(Gen 19:16 NKJV) And while he lingered, the men took hold of his hand, his wife's hand, and the hands of his two daughters, the LORD being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(huskers @ Feb 18 2007, 10:46 AM) [snapback]392326[/snapback]</div>

I agree. We don't need another schism of the pastafarian faith!

So no one will take up on my argument that very likely religion is fiction made up by us humans. You can just follow my handy chart.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Feb 17 2007, 11:05 PM) [snapback]392274[/snapback]</div>

I want to make sure you know I don't share those views. I don't think you are somehow less of a Christian because of your social and political views, and I don't make a judgment about your salvation, your relationship with God, or your fellow man.

I'm not against "judging"; I serve on juries, and I make value judgments about right and wrong all day long. We are asked to judge things using reason and shared values frequently in life. But there's one area I think we have to be very careful about issuing any kind of judgments.

I try not to judge the depth of someone else's relationship with God, as I feel that's the real violation of Matt. 7:1 - 5. Its God's prerogative to make that judgment, not mine.

So, I don't agree with you on many issues TJ, nor do I agree with the atheists, agnostics and "undecideds", but that doesn't mean I have "decided" where any one else stands in relationship to God. That's between them and God.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Feb 17 2007, 02:03 PM) [snapback]392110[/snapback]</div>

"Man's" right to abortion? You might want to reconsider that phrase ... men have no rights in regards to abortion. If my wife got pregnant tomorrow, and I very much wanted the child, I would have no say in if it is aborted or not. Likewise, if I was single, and got my girlfriend pregnant, she is the one who makes the decision if I am just a boyfriend or a person who pays child support for the next 18 years. Even if she defrauded me by saying she was on birth control. The reason it has to be this way is that to enforce a man's right to kill or allow the fetus to come to terms, we have to override the woman's rights, and because she is the "bearer" of the child, she has more at stake.

I struggle with the abortion question myself, as it really isn't dealt with in the Bible in any direct manner, and churches have had different interpretations. It used to be that some Christians considered the fetus a human life at "quickening", when the mother can feel movement, from 18 - 24 weeks. That was considered when the baby was given life by God. At least one sect I know of considers the taking of the first breath as the point of ensoulment, so as long as the baby isn't born, it can be killed at any time prior to that first breath.

As medical knowledge advanced, we moved that date farther and farther back to conception, but I'm not sure that makes sense. Certainly, any baby conceived has a wonderful potential for life that is measured at about 80%, IIRC (there's a figure for the number of conceptions that are estimated to not implant for one reason or another, without the mother knowing about it ... I think its about 20% ... but it could be much lower when you take other factors into account). So any abortion is a tragedy in my book, but where do you say the killing is of an actual human and not a potential human?

What do we consider human life? I have no idea when "ensoulment" happens, and I don't think that answer is acceptable for a legal and social decision anyway. I'm leaning toward brain activity as the measure of when a fetus is a human, just as we use that to measure if a person with a head injury is "alive" or not.

But then we have to decide what type of brain activity ... for born people, we use the brain stem activity and the brain stem development starts at about a month, and is mostly formed at about 9 weeks, with nearly complete development by the 7th month. But the forebrain, which controls cognitive ability, is not even fully developed at birth, so if we use "full cognitive ability", we would have to allow killing of newborns.

So, if we use this logic, early pregnancies (less than two months) could be terminated for any reason without any moral compunctions. Later pregnancies could be terminated for some good reason, as we shouldn't kill humans in a casual manner. It is a moral choice to choose to save the mother's life over the fetus' life from a couple of aspects.

But our society's original decision on abortion is not based on any consideration of the fetus; it is based on a woman's right to privacy, and until we can see the baby, she can kill it.

 

Sorry, FSHagan. No one knows when conception takes place, that right belongs to God.

The thing that most people don't understand is that they are just vessels/bodies in which their spirits reside.

It is by God's own breath that a person comes into being at the point of conception, a time set by Him and no other. It is by God's own breath that we even live. And it is for that very reason that we should not even contemplate suicide no matter what because whether or not one believes in Him, our lives do not belong to us. We didn't even begat ourselves, much less the universe.

If it were not so, many of us would choose to live forever; but alas, according to many people on this forum that is not TRUE!

Anyway, if you want to live and know without a doubt that you are going to die, who is it that has the last say? You? Certainly not.

And rightly so because as it is written: "Lord, teach us to number thy days."

As for Alric, you who do neuro work according to the education and degrees that you posted on another thread, above most people on this forum should know better than that. I say to you: you are very delusional at best if you think you have CONTROL over your own life.

The work that you do, and it may very well be important, but it was God who gave you the gifts and talents to do what you do. And God can take it away.

"The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away."

Even for Christians, we believe that God can give and He can still take away. But God still directs our steps and so we believe that the: "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

 

Hey where is that Neocon psuedo-Christian from the beginning of this thread? The one making fun of the woman with her child in the picture..

How's your war going now? Not so hot huh? WE TOLD YOU SO.

 

If a man stands on a corner with a sign that says, 'Jesus loves you', you can, and often, will walk by with out saying anything to him. And for that man, that is fine and expected.


What some of the people on this thread seem to be doing, is standing on the corner with a sign that says, 'Jesus loves you, but only one way, His way, and furthermore...' and then when you try to walk by without saying anything, they will hit you with the sign, tell you you are wrong, and then try to convince you they are correct because a book tells them so.


I would rather be that first man.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Feb 18 2007, 03:43 PM) [snapback]392453[/snapback]</div>

Hopefully the availability of the morning after pill will make heated debates on abortion extinct. I realize that this is still a form of abortion but at least the fertilized egg doesn't have a central nervous system and doesn't feel pain. This is the point at which I start to question my pro choice position.

If a woman is just and equitable, her partner will have an equal say in the abortion decision.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Feb 18 2007, 10:44 AM) [snapback]392353[/snapback]</div>

I'll give it a stab. Religion was made up by man as a way to deal with that question "What is it all about" or "Why are we here"? Over many 1000s of years religion was developed for people at different stages of understanding. Myths were made and re-made as time and nations developed and took each other over. In the end you had mystics and literalists. The literalists won out and that is why we are where we are today. May the FSM be with you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(huskers @ Feb 18 2007, 05:37 PM) [snapback]392526[/snapback]</div>

Ramen.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Feb 18 2007, 01:50 PM) [snapback]392507[/snapback]</div>

There are some birth control pills that are suspected of being abortifacets, too. I don't object to those because it happens so early in the pregnancy. I don't think the "morning after pill" (MAP) will really do much to prevent abortion, as most abortions are for sexually active young adults who have a failure of birth control or, in some cases, don't use birth control at all. Many of those pregnancies end up in live births with single mothers, which presents its own problems (but I view as more desirable than terminating the pregnancy.) Very few abortions are because of rape, incest or the life of the mother, and most pro-life people would allow exceptions for those causes. But the MAP doesn't seem any worse to me than any other early method, so if its safe, it should be allowed.

Partners should consult each other on things, but you can't make that law when a protected right is at stake. Men continue to be on the outs in regards to babies before they are born, but I don't see a way around it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Feb 18 2007, 12:28 PM) [snapback]392472[/snapback]</div>

I do! I do! Its when the sperm penetrates the egg! (Maybe that's not what you meant, but "conception" is a human concept that we have defined, and we do, indeed, know when it happens. We have video, even).

Your arguments are fine from a theological point of view, but do you really want to incorporate them into a civil law? Who enforces the idea that our bodies do not belong to us, but that we have to have permission to do anything to them? The priest? Or if its going to be the civil government, what religious leaders do we gather together to tell the legislators what laws are in accordance with our theology and which are not? Because if you get 10 pastors together, they will still disagree on a lot of what has to be decided.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Feb 19 2007, 12:24 AM) [snapback]392669[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for your comments. I am aware that the scenarios I posted for which people have abortions are not typical and that the most probable cause is that people are just plain irresponsible. I framed my post in such a manner as I'm posting in a religious thread and some of the residents in here are strictly opposed to abortion without giving the gray areas any merit or thought. I've had the experience of having a discussion with one resident in another thread in the past. I felt it's necessary to point out some of the injustices or experiences people may encounter and why they may want their right to choose abortion.

It's disgusting really that millions of babies are aborted every year. At least this is the number I recollect from reviewing the statistics a while back. But then I balance this emotion with our diminishing natural resources, our human population that increases like a ticking clock and the fact that these children are not wanted and may suffer an even greater tragedy at the hands of an mother who has no need or want for the child. And to put it quite simply, how in the world are we going to care for and handle millions of the unwanted babies that are born annually from both an economical and a social standpoint?

I'm really quite torn on the matter but lean towards pro choice just because I believe no solutions exist to the consequences I've noted above, should abortions not be available.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Feb 18 2007, 02:10 PM) [snapback]392442[/snapback]</div>

thanks fshagan~

I feel the same way as this post, I wouldnt/couldnt have said it better myself. B)

Oh thank you, to the other person who emailed me to come back Ty.

[b]desynch-mysak[/b], Another A typical responce to incite the women on the thread.. . Im starting to think some of the posters in this thread are using different screen names...... <_<

[quote]desynch: Hey where is that Neocon psuedo-Christian from the beginning of this thread? [b]The one making fun of the woman with her child in the picture[/b].
How's your war going now? Not so hot huh? WE TOLD YOU SO.[img]http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/images/smilies/bigredcry.gif.[/b][/quote][/img]

anyways I'll be over here...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Feb 18 2007, 10:02 PM) [snapback]392710[/snapback]</div>

Its under a million a year (still too many, but not as bad as some of the advocacy groups would have you believe). The ratio of abortions expressed in terms of number of abortions per 1000 live births has actually been decreasing too. Overall, the trend is down in terms of the total number of abortions each year, with 848,163 in 2003, according to the CDC. There are a ton of stats on it at the CDC, and I tend to trust their stats more than any of the advocacy groups ... they have been keeping them since 1969. See the most recent stats at http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5511a1.htm for the 2003 survey.

With pregnancy preventable for most people, we should be seeing far less unwanted pregnancies. But the rate of unwanted pregnancy increased with the "sexual revolution", and has been decreasing in the last few years, IIRC.

To me the question of abortion hinges on when the fetus can be considered enough of a person to secure its rights. If the fetus is not a person, then it can be removed for any reason. If its a person, then you have to have a set of circumstances that would allow you to kill any person (i.e., "self defense" in the case of killing a born person or the "life of the mother" idea for killing a fetus). The problem is there is a sliding scale based on the individual fetus' development (if we decide that brain activity is the key). Its a tough one.

 

To the fundies:

While you're at it with your nutcase idealogies, why don't you chase banning sex, masturbation, even procreation. Each time a man/woman procreates many millions of eggs and sperm are lost - it's all biological. If you want to be internally consistent, you should push for the creation of some kind of device for males and females that collects all the wasted sperm and eggs. A woman's ovaries starts out with some 400,000 eggs - the vast vast majority of which will be biologically thrown away. Your deity is 'the ultimate abortionist.' (per daniel's profile quote)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Feb 20 2007, 05:46 AM) [snapback]393186[/snapback]</div>

The location says it all B)