Down to the Rapture

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Feb 13 2007, 08:29 PM) [snapback]389851[/snapback]</div>

I honestly would have no problem standing in front of your God and starting with "Oh, I didn't believe in you" but I would follow with "but I've lived my life in such a manner that I selflessly cared for your creation, both the earth and all living beings and unknowingly emulated that which you would've expected from me". After all wouldn't it even be more admirable to God that I acted in such an honorable manner without even feeling as if I had to be accountable to to a higher power in order to do so? If the answer to that question is "no", then I would not want to be accepted by such a power that lacks understanding, compassion and most of all forgiveness.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Feb 13 2007, 07:39 PM) [snapback]389811[/snapback]</div>

Finally we agree on something!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Feb 14 2007, 12:15 AM) [snapback]389954[/snapback]</div>

Actually, windy, I happen to prefer The Message, for everyday reading. I also love The Word On The Street, a Bible written in today's slang.

As for studying, I read the NKJV; never the Nearly Incomplete Version.


Frankly windy, we could both whip out our units and have a pissing contest, and while the stream and texture may vary, it's still pee all the same.

You want to believe, need to believe in The Bible, to fulfil your obvious void that you have in your life.

You can't even comprehend that one could, nay, have fallen head over heels in Faith to Christ with out a single full page of the Bible.

There is a tribe in Africa, I believe it is, that when the missionaries got there, to preach them the Gospel, this tribe was not only speaking English, but were full on Christians. Without ever having been visited by anyone. They were a remote tribe.

How could this happen, you ask? Well, it seems about 50 years before, there were these other missionaries, who were being told to take their Bibles and to leave. When they refused, the local authorities had ordered them to burn their Bibles. One piece floated up in the air, one shard, and feel deep in the woods, in this tribes area. It had on it only one verse, John 3:16.

You know that verse, right windy? Well, anyway, that ONE verse form The Bible managed to transform that tribe.

ONE verse. Not the whole Bible. Not even close. ONE VERSE, and lo, a miracle happened.

I have said, and you have ignored it every time, that I find 30-40% of that ancient scribe, The Bible, to be accurate. Now, I am no mathematician, nor do I play on on the internets, but if you take out all the bullsheet of Numbers, and other filler verses (he begot this and that stuff), that still leaves a powerful amount that I find 100% Accurate. See, I have done the research, I have studied (and know Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin, along with German), and have come to the conclusion that GOD gave me enough brains to figure out was (and is), real about that book, the Bible.


Just because I am not as you are, as put upon to have a desire to hold onto some book, a book that you revere more then GOD HIMSELF, as you have indicated here in these posts, does not for one minute mean I don't have FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, Holy Son of God.

I am crude, I am a buffoon, I am a sinner. I am also a Pastor, an ordained Minister, a Preacher.

I am one who is willing, more so then some are, to let people decide for themselves if they want to find God, or follow Christ. I am willing to let you go on and on endlessly with your Bible verses, as if you have the cut and paste version at your very disposal. I am willing to let you put me down, and I am willing to have fun at your expense, with your on screen name.

But one thing I will stand by, is my faith. My faith is what made me what I am today. It is what keeps me sane, and filled with peace as I know that I will meet my maker, and He will say 'Well done, my faithful servant'.

You may continue. You may pray endlessly for me, and the others you think are heathens, and wrong, and blinded. It's your free will to do so.

However, I wish, for GOD'S sake, that you get off you Holier Then Thou stick. You are taking His Good Message, and trouncing on it. You don't even realize it, but there are dozens, maybe many many more people reading this thread, and having a major kick out of it, because they get to watch 'Christians' bash each other, as they laugh at us.

Not one soul will be convinced on this board, this PRIUS board, to change. If there is one, it's a miracle.

I have no delusions as to what people think of me. Some may even think I'm the nice person here. But that's alright.

It's a bunch of typed words, on a screen. The real power to change hearts is always there.

God is always there, Bible or not. As He has always been.

God is one. But the path to God? Many. Some smooth, some rough, some filled with peaks and valleys. But those who choose to believe in God, Jesus, and His sacrifice, they get there on their own. Maybe they were Buddhists, Mormons, Catholics. Jews. Atheists.

But in the end, the person who says, 'I believe in you Christ, I believe in your sacrifice', they are saved, and will go to heaven. No matter when they say it, or if they say it and five seconds later get hit by the bus and die.

A person's salvation is a a very private matter. And how they got there, and how they stay there, is also
private. If they choose to share with others, fine.
All I have asked for here, and it's long since lost in this tangled web of a thread, is that people think for themselves; not to just believe in a book because that book says so.



Now, having typed this all out, I feel as if the words will fall on blind eyes, again, but at least I feel like I sort of said what I want to say.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Feb 13 2007, 09:29 PM) [snapback]389916[/snapback]</div>

Nice defencive posture,

This arguement is dead,

[

See how that argument changed by removing one word? Yes it can be said many different ways... Its just not worth the argument....

Just have peace in knowing I and millions like me are praying for you...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Feb 13 2007, 11:16 PM) [snapback]390024[/snapback]</div>

Simon you can rationalize your salvation if you want and take the chance, but God has already made the way and made it clear and has presented it to you.. if you choose to be a gardener and care for his creation with disregard for a relatioship with him... I'm sorry to say your on the wrong track.

As I have already pointed out, Jesus is the only way to the Father.
Anyone who tried to go around another way:

(Rom 1:25 KJV) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

(John 10:1 KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
(John 10:2 KJV) But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

(2 Pet 3:1 KJV) This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
(2 Pet 3:2 KJV) That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
(2 Pet 3:3 KJV) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
(2 Pet 3:4 KJV) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

If you had a son that cared for your car and your house, but would not talk to you, would you give him your inheritance?





<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Feb 13 2007, 11:22 PM) [snapback]390028[/snapback]</div>

Yes, buy your intellect is still blocking you....

Let me put it to you another way... if you had to understand why you love your children, wife or spouse, Father, mother before you would surrender and so it, you would never love.

What is it that makes you come back with open arms to someone who burns you and by all rational account should be cut off?.. what is that powerful force that causes you to overlook your childrens mistakes and pick them up again time after time and clean thier dirty diapers over and over again?

What was the love tha caused your mother to do the same for you.... did they understand it first before they surrendered to it?

When you were dating, did you understand everything about your mate before you surrendered your heart to them?
Even if you would have spent 50 years first... would you have understood them then?

If you reley on your intellegence before you surrender your heart, you will be cold an hardened and not let anyone in... because people are cruel.... love is about giving... not taking.
Giving of yourself and your heart.... Thats all God wants... if he has your heart, he has everything.

(Mat 6:21 KJV) For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Feb 14 2007, 07:51 AM) [snapback]390097[/snapback]</div>

That's an interesting analogy but it's not that cut and dry. While there would be evidence that my son exists, there is none available to me that God exists. The only thing that I am asked to base my belief in God and Jesus is pure faith and the word of other's that believe. People say that they are abducted by aliens and that UFO's have visited our world but until I have evidence of this, I don't believe this either.

To answer the scenario that you've provided, if my son were unable to hear me or see me and as such didn't talk with me, I wouldn't hold this against him in any way. There is no mal intent in this scenario. I could forgive him.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Feb 14 2007, 10:35 AM) [snapback]390159[/snapback]</div>

Funny you should mention that (in bold) Look around you God created all living things, plants, animals, fish, mamals, water even the air you breath its in Genisis.... B)

I dont want to get into the whole big bang theroy ( thats already been covered in another topic). :mellow:

I do not know about other religions, the christian religion is not that hard to get into all you have to do is be saved/born again.

All I had to do was "ask god to forgive me of my sins, and come into my heart" (thats it). I didnt attend church nor id I read the bible. :mellow: I now attend church and read the bible.....

I know plenty of born again christians, that do not read the bible or attend church. They are however christians and believe in god. but they still asked god into their hearts. They now believe their spirit will go to heaven.. B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Feb 14 2007, 12:26 PM) [snapback]390182[/snapback]</div>

I have a problem with the "heaven" theory too. Many humans believe they'll go to heaven due to their belief and acceptance of God, which results from our higher consciousness. What of all of the other living organisms on this planet that God created? Are we humans the only beings that are allowed entrance into "heaven" merely because He provided us with a higher consciousness and because we have accepted Him? If God created all living things, why would he exclude some beings access to heaven merely because He didn't equip them with this higher consciousness? Why would He be so selective with his creation?

It may please some of you to know that I do pray on occassion. I NEVER pray to ask for things. I do sometimes say a prayer thanking God, if there is one, for my blessings in life. Even though I've had a rough life, I realize that I'm a lot better off than a lot of other people on this planet and try to live every day in appreciation of this realization. I don't pray because I believe in God but rather in case there is a God. If there is a greater power that created me and the earth, I figure He should know of my appreciation.

I'm happy for you that you've been able to incorporate a belief into your life that provides you with comfort and hope for the hereafter.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Feb 14 2007, 03:01 AM) [snapback]390093[/snapback]</div>

Now, that is one arrogant and condescending statement.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Feb 14 2007, 02:05 PM) [snapback]390267[/snapback]</div>

This is also where my skepticism began. My incessant questions and the contrived, made-up answers I received led me to conclude that the whole idea is a fantasy. I understand the wish to live forever and feel that everything is under control, but that doesn't make it real. Life makes so much more sense now.

 

I do not know I always thought that Babies & animals went to heaven as they are not held with commiting sin.

As it has been said before, you have learned to trust in your intelligence and if you can't process it, you won't trust it or believe in it....

I really have found one denomination that tries to twist your arm, and that is the Jehovas Witnesses.

I have told them till Im blue in the face, that Im not interested but they still come back I have to let the sheperd out then they walk on by... they can give other denominations a bad name, as people will think everyone is the same..

Most denominations will tell you how to become a follower of christ or give you a tract to read, but if you tell them Im not intrested they will not follow you down the street and beat you into submission with their Bibles..... :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Feb 14 2007, 07:28 PM) [snapback]390535[/snapback]</div>

If sin is defined as killing, polygamy, stealing, bullying and prejudice - it's rampant in the animal kingdom. I could provide you with thousands of examples. It's likely more rampant in the animal kingdom than in humans as we make a collective attempt to comply with social norms. In the animal kingdom, they're ruled by survival of the fittest.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Feb 14 2007, 12:05 PM) [snapback]390267[/snapback]</div>

I really appreciate what seems to be sincerity and honesty in your stance, rather than foolish slander and mudslinging.



What makes us different from the rest of creation is the fact that God breathed the breath of life into us and we became a "Living soul".... well ...before sin anyway.....



All things were made by God and for his pleasure, but his creation has been going on for millions of years IMO... from the tiny single celled organisms to the pets we play with that bring us comfort and pleasure.



Living on earth alone, we are merely as the animals, but being able to live and move in the spirit is what makes us different... we are spirit beings with a soul that travel in our earth suits made to commune with God. Its in our nature to do so... why do you think even cannibals and aberiginys in the dark jungles all worship a God?.. its in thier nature to do so!.. why.. what caused that????



That "soul" is the combination of our identity made in the image of God.....

On the fifth creative day, he made man in his image.. it wasn't until the 6th day that he breathed the breath of live into him....



I believe that too is another type and shadow of us living.. .or we think we're living, but then when he breaths his breath of life into us and gives us his Holy Spirit.. only then do we become a "living" soul.. before then, we're dead in our sins.....



I know this sounds deep and complicated.. but the mere fact that you exist and your loved ones exist is proof God exists.



People will believe in "the force" or some unseen energy that controls all and arranges the molecules with symetry and intelligence and thats ok, but when you mention God.. they freak out.. because then they have to be accountable.



So many only want spritual "porn"...all the good things of the spirit and his pleasures without commitment and relationship to God......



then there are another wounded group of people that want relationship, but won't let him close to experience his pleasures and joys.... both are dysfunctional from the original intent of the Creator, and both of these dysfunctions are mirrored in our marriages today.



There were Good men in the bible that gave part of thier goods and followed thier concious and Jesus commended them by saying the Kingdom of God was Nigh them, or close to them.. but until they accept Jesus, the curse the separates them from God still exists...



God is Holy and nothing unclean can come before him... thats why we need forgiveness and washing to be accepted to come into his presence...not by our works, but his.



If people refuse the free gift of God they will be accountable and be lost in thier sins even though God loves them and wanted to save them.... just like those who didn't choose to put the lambs blood on thier doorpost had thier firstborn die when the death angel came... as now we call the "passover".



That too was a type and shadow of what was to come... Jesus, the lamb or "sacrifice" for the world.



But only those to take that blood upon them will be saved... simple as that.



You can rationalize it all you want, and you can be a kind loving person and do good and give to the poor and you can still die in your sins because you never removed your sins....



Only the blood of Jesus can remove sin....and only he can satisfy...... another reason the Koran is a joke of a religion, under the guise of being a book of peace is a book of destruction as it is of the Devil.



Its the churches fault so many are ignorant about this.. so many churches only speak on an evangelical level to bring more into the fold, but never minister to the saints that are already there.... too sad.



Some of my responses have been hard... even as some of Jesus's were, and I feel bad for being so strong sometimes, but thier are different offices in the ministry.. some people have blends of all and some excell or have a stronger gift or calling in a specific one or two.

The divisions of the ministries set forth in the church are (1) apostles, some to be (2) prophets, some to be (3) evangelists, and some to be (4) pastors and (5) teachers.

As you can tell.. I'm not too strong on the pastor side.. If I had a church, it would take a special crowd to not freak out and leave... I"m not good and telling folks only what they want to hear.. I"ve gotten better, but somewhere, if you never tell them, you are just decieving and lying to them.



Pastors need to tell people when things are wrong that greive the Holy Spirit.. they are afraid to even talk about the Holy Spirit for fear some may leave and giving funds will decrease... they are called "hirelings".. they serve God for money and not to obey the calling God has placed on thier lives and any expense.

The Holy Spirit is the power to walk the walk.. without him, it all seems such a lie and a farce because it can't be done!!!



I sense the sincerity of your Heart and I know God will honor that as he Promises that those who Knock, the door will be opened...



I encourage you to NOT.. "Never" settle for less than the thirst in your heart is seeking.. God placed that thirst there on purpose!!!!... Those who settle for less and for lies, never find thier true calling and gifting and the devil steals their destiny and thier life!



Always remember.. the Devil is a liar and the father of it. And he has no power of his own except to steal it from others.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Feb 14 2007, 05:45 PM) [snapback]390543[/snapback]</div>

Animals are not under the law, neither is thier a plan of salvation for them... they are animals... merely vessels to carry. They have thier own nature, but they can also carry natures of demons.. just as unprotected people can.



Remember the devils that entered into the swine that ran off the cliff as Jesus cast them out of a fellow?

They are disembodied spirits that seek habitation.. if they cannot find a human, they will settle for an animal if they can get it.

However, they do not have authority to enter whoever or whatever they want.. even the animals are protected unless something opens them up to them and releases that authority.



Even animals have more authority to live here than demons.. demons are cursed.. they are not angels.. but fallen angels are cursed too and have diffent assignments, but you will most likely never encounter a fallen angel unless you operate in high levels of Gods authority.. they don't have time for you as they have bigger fish to fry as they control regions and principalities in the air..... Demons are what most have to deal with on a daily basis.



But we are usually our biggest enemy... demons can only prey on the the unknowledgable that are not under the protection of the Blood.



Jesus said.. my people perish for lack of knowledge.....

There are alot of pitfalls and deception.. thats why Gods word and good teaching is needed to be aware of the Devils devices. But there is some sorry teaching out there too..



If your wondering who to follow.. just look at thier fruits.. and ask yourself.. what power do "they" walk in? and does God confirm the words they speak?

Don't merey follow a man.. but follow men that know how to follow God until you can follow God on your own.



Words are cheap... your spirit will know truth when you hear it, if you are hungry for it and ask for God to reveal himself to you.

God will not "trick" you and allow you to be decieved if you ask him for truth.



Those who are confident are the most dangerous.. because when your decieved, you don't know it.. otherwish you wouldn't be decieved.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Feb 14 2007, 08:05 PM) [snapback]390556[/snapback]</div>

I was being sincere. I would never have a problem with anyone worshiping as they wish, so long as they don't kill or harm other people that may not share the same belief. Which brings me to another reason why I choose not to belong to a particular faith.

Anyway, I don't know where Loveit is, but you and Priusguy04 haven't answered my "heaven" question satisfactorily enough for my reconciliation. Nothing accusatory here, just pointing out that the concept of "heaven" is also one of faith. I'm highly left brained, so maybe that's my problem. I'm looking for the logic and rationality of it all and can't seem to find anything.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Feb 13 2007, 11:16 PM) [snapback]390024[/snapback]</div>

God: Ya'll messed it up, but I'm gonna give you a second chance. I'm gonna make it simple: Here's my Son, he's going to live, talk to ya'll, die for all the bad stuff you did after never having done anything bad himself, on the third day come back from death with victory over the grave. That's it... Makes it affordable to everyone who wants to do it, everyone welcome, but that's what I require.

Odd People Respond: God, I know ya said all that, but would ya take a good attitude, helping old ladies across the street and trying not to step on your bugs as I enjoy the nature that you created for me?

God: No, that won't do. Please see the requirements list again, it's a short list.

Odd People Respond again: Great, thanks God... here's what I'm gonna do so that you'll find me acceptable. I'm gonna give to the homeless shelter, I won't cheat on my taxes and I'm gonna try to be nice to almost everyone I meet. I just would like to be accepted into eternity with you for being a good person and I just really have too much pride to humble myself, realise I can't ever be good enough on my own and accept your free gift of Jesus Christ. My good deeds are going to have to be enough!! Wait till you see my resume of good deeds!

God: eye-yei-yei

As you step into Eternity....

You: Um... Hi God, I didn't think you existed...

God: Well, I do. How many ways could I have shown you, how many people did I put in your path to tell you?

You: "but I've lived my life in such a manner that I selflessly cared for your creation, both the earth and all living beings and unknowingly emulated that which you would've expected from me".

God: Let's break that down. More specifically, the part about unknowingly emulated that which you would've expected from me. Where did you come up with "that which I would have expected of you"?

You: Well, I thought up things I thought you would like.

God: How did you pretend to know what I would like? Did you ever try to get to know who I am?

You: Not really, I just figured if there was a God at all, then that God would like me to do things like take care of the earth and I tried to be a good person.

God: But, you never tried to figure out who I am. You never got to know me. You did what was important to you and not what was important to me. You lived your life to try to be good by your standards, not my standards. You never took the time to discover what my standards are. I asked you only one thing, to believe on my Son Jesus Christ for salvation. I saw you hear that. I saw you think about that, and I saw you reject that offer.

You: But I didn't think you were real.

God: Do you think I am real now?

You: Yes

God: Do you believe I have a Son, Jesus Christ who is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

You: Yes

God: As my Word says, every knee shall bow, every tounge confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I am a God of many chances and you had many chances. As a Holy God, I say what I mean and mean what I say and you well know what happens next.

You: Yes, I must depart from you for all eternity.

God: This is as it is written.

As a believer in, and follower of Jesus Christ, I hold on to one hope and one hope alone. When I'm face to face with God in eternity and am asked about the sin in my lifetime, I have no excuses. No "But, it was someone else's fault".... No "If I had more info or more of anything I would have done better".. I cling to the cross of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of all my sins. That's where God tells me in the Bible I can find that forgivness and that is what I've come to find as my only hope to be saved from the punishment for what I've done.

Good luck with explaining it out, I don't think it'll help ya much.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Feb 14 2007, 07:18 PM) [snapback]390564[/snapback]</div>

Because it's not there! Faith is the acceptance of the irrational. I mean... cheat on your wife, then beg for forgiveness to your little imaginary friend, and then all is forgiven! Sin sin sin......... repent....... rinse and repeat... it's all good!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Feb 14 2007, 03:57 PM) [snapback]390410[/snapback]</div>

Again it comes back to this. It is a matter of FAITH. Believers can attempt to "explain" Heaven to you and even quote many scriptures in the process to support it's existence, but if YOU don't believe that God's word is the truth and accept the existence of Heaven then it's really a waste of time for everyone to try to convince you otherwise. When a person is ready to believe then it doesn't matter what part of your brain you think with. It becomes a matter of spirit....not right vs. left brain.

Besides...I don't think it was your "incessant questions and the contrived, made-up answers" that you received that led you to conclude that the whole idea is a fantasy. Your choice of words certainly implies that you'd already made up your mind. That is certainly your choice. As long as you're happy with it...I'm assuming you don't care if I'm happy with my choice, as well?

You can try to prove all day that Heaven doesn't exist and I'm not going to believe it. Apparently I can try to convince you it DOES exist and you're not going to believe it either. I think it's a stalemate.

If something should change your mind let me know. I'd be curious as to why the change of thought. Until then...enjoy your outlook.

As far as Alric & Mizra are concerned "I'll stick with my signature saying" on the bottom.
Im not going to sling mud... B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Feb 14 2007, 10:04 PM) [snapback]390630[/snapback]</div>

You're a bit mixed up there... the onus is on YOU to prove it. Too bad all you've got going for you are texts that are nothing like the so-called "original" (none of which are internally consistent - more 'proof' that a human not just wrote them, but came up with them).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Feb 14 2007, 10:05 AM) [snapback]390267[/snapback]</div>

I think we Christians are sometimes prisoners of our own orthodoxy. In our zeal to help others see the beauty in faith, we sometimes make certain things sound like they are "locks" and indicate they fall into the "must believe" category. I'll try to avoid that (but it isn't easy!)

Not all of Christianity believes in the concept of original sin as my brothers here are talking about, but most Christians do believe that every man sins on his own. That's defined various ways, of course, but there are plenty of examples and parables that show the idea that sin is a conscious act rather than just a blunder. In the first story we read about man's relationship to God, Adam and Eve knew God, but willingly disobeyed him. Throughout the Bible there are indications that man's "rebellion" against God isn't the sort of thing that is simply unbelief, but rather active disobedience ... another parable puts a prophet, Jonah, disobeying God and going the opposite direction, and becomes fish food. The Apostle Paul speaks of Christians and Jews being judged differently because of all they know, whereas the person who doesn't know God at all is judged by "natural law". That kind of makes sense ... if you know you should do something, and don't, then you're held liable. But, in a turn from our own legal system, "ignorance of the law" seems to be, indeed, an excuse under some theological systems.

There are stories and imagery in the Bible that speaks of lions and lambs in heaven, and there's no clear theology that states animals do not share as part of his creation. There's a lot of Christian theology of the sort that says since the Bible does not mention something in heaven, therefore that thing must not be there; but we can't be dogmatic about that. Lack of evidence is not proof, it is simply lack of evidence.