Don't Run Out of Charge in Your Leaf!

Re: Oh wow, the flatbeds are coming out

Miles to empty is more useful in a gas engined car than an electric because as you get towards empty the gas miles to empty readout is very consistent if not accurate. I know that my Prius has just under gallons left when I hit 0 miles and my Corvette has a bit over one gallon. With that information I know to a high reasonably high degree of accuracy how far I can go before turning into a pedestrian.

With an electric car, miles to empty you won't get that consistency because remaining battery charge is a more difficult thing to determine than measuring a fluid level.

 

Re: Oh wow, the flatbeds are coming out

Granted, NEVER is pretty strong and probably an incorrect statement on my part. What I meant to say; As long as I need to drive like I do now, an electric vehicle, even at $8/gallon is not feasible for me. The lack of range, the lack of infrastructure to readily charge the batteries, and the length of time it takes to recharge are all distractors for me. I'm actually amazed as to why natural gas hasn't caught on for cars. The infrastructure can be readily available in most areas, it wouldn't take long to "gas up" the tank, and range anxiety wouldn't be a problem if it was as convenient as the gas station. I might see electric vehicle become dominant in my lifetime, but by then I'll be retired and hopefully won't be driving as much as I do now.

 

Re: Oh wow, the flatbeds are coming out

Yep. There are plenty of ICE only cars that have trip computers showing distance to empty. My 02 Maxima had it as does my 04 350Z.

It's also can have huge variation esp. when at the beginning or end of a tank accompanied by hard acceleration. It also has a habit of going from some value greater than 10 to --- which pretty much means, get gas pronto.

 

Re: Oh wow, the flatbeds are coming out

This is the case for all ICE-based cars, though...

 

Re: Oh wow, the flatbeds are coming out

In this thread you will see folks agreeing humorously with my assessment of when to fill up my Prius.

http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-...-light-almost-4-gallons-left.html#post1236847

You have a brand new car with your wife and small children onboard and you have picked that moment to see if you can use the last mile on the gauge? It is not the car that is wrong, it is your methodology.

 

Re: Oh wow, the flatbeds are coming out

Fluid level is pretty easy to measure, although most automobiles don't do a particularly good job of it. While it is harder to measure remaining charge in a battery, I suggest there are two bigger contributers to remaining miles uncertainty with EVs:

1) Short range - Current EVs have very limited range when compared to petroleum powered cars. Even the best ones have a range equivalent to about two gallons of gasoline for a Prius. If we reduce the Prius gas tank to two gallons, suddenly the fluid level measurements become much more critical.

The problem is that EVs are essentially out of fuel before they even start. Compared to conventional cars, EVs spend their entire lives in or near a fuel emergency. This amplifies the remaining "fuel" uncertainty.

2) Efficiency: EVs are pretty efficient, especially when compared to standard "gas guzzler" big cars. This means that the energy consumption of an EV is more closely related to driving conditions. For example, my old V8 Jeep C-J5 got around 14 mpg, whether driving down a dirt road or on the highway. Its mileage was poor, but it didn't show much variability. My Prius, on the other hand, varies quite a bit in the mileage department. The difference between 50 mph and 70 mph is rather remarkable. EVs are like this, but even more so.

What this means is that even if we can accurately determine the amount of energy left in the tank, we still face the uncertainty of the future. In other words, how will we drive those last few miles before we run out of fuel? It didn't make much difference in my Jeep, but it makes a world of difference with an EV.

Tom

 

Re: Oh wow, the flatbeds are coming out

I guess a subtle thing that bothers me about this thread is the title itself. "Oh Wow, The Flatbeds (plural) are coming out" makes it sound like stranded Leaf owners are the norm or common...or it is a trend...

We are siting 2 incidents,- and there will probably be more. But given the relatively new experience of owning and using a first generation mass produced electric vehicle, instead of a debate about range anxiety, or the failures of The Leaf or Leaf Owners, I'd rather hear what is right about them.

I want them to succeed to the greatest extent they can.

I want the truth. If it becomes a trend, if Leaf Owners in great number are finding themselves stranded due to misjuding the available range, either due to operator error or flaws in the information system, I do want to know about it. Because then we look for improvement, a better solution.

But is it fair to say "The Flatbeds are Coming Out" because 1,2,-3 new owners of new technology make a mistake?

In coming years, my speculation is you see improvement across the board. Improvement in infrastructure, battery technology, interface, and familiarity. In the meantime, since I think it's important to be as supportive of the attempt to stretch new boundaries of mass consumerism in terms of alternative personal transportation choices, I don't want to feed the flames of anti-electric hysteria.

As Prius owners most of you should be familiar with how 1 or 2 reported incidents can suddenly become THE TRUTH in the eyes of the entire public. So I ask? Are The Flatbeds coming out...or did A flatbed come out? Because although the language is subtle in it's difference, the underlying message about the reality of The Leaf and the reality of it's real world viability will be painted much differently.

If there is a flaw or weakness in the system that Nissan could/should work to improve? Then fine. Otherwise, I define this as separate incidents and NOT necessarily indicative that The Leaf isn't viable within the parameters it was designed to function.

 

Re: Oh wow, the flatbeds are coming out

Good point, although even this exotic EV has about half the range of most economy gasoline cars.

This whole range anxiety thing reminds me of a pilot that owns an old Russian jet fighter that he flies at air shows. He said that it burned so much fuel for the size of the tanks that he was in a fuel emergency from the moment his wheels left the ground. He would plan out the whole flight down to the minute, and get air traffic control clearance for the entire flight before takeoff. It was the only way to make sure he had enough fuel to get back.

Tom

 

Re: Oh wow, the flatbeds are coming out

As a rule I never let my tank go much below half, in the winter when I travel out of town I start with a full tank. What I can see is real potential problems with electrics in the winter - man you need HEAT, at least some heat! Without ICE you an get stuck pretty fast, for good. (On this note; people still freeze because they run out of gas.)

EVs are great if the intended use fits the abilities of the car. They will run around town, take you to work etc. With proper planning and charge stations in town and at work they will work for many. Even in the Great White North. Maybe the dealers should be thought to find out from the prospective buyer if the planned use of the EV meets certain application criteria. (This criteria will have to be different for the Northern states with real winters.) If not, steer the customer to another product. This would be socially responsive behaviour!

The problem is that many people lack basic logic and do not understand the phrase 'proper planning'. This will cause problems, complaints and bad press. Imagine GM, NISSAN being sued when someone gets hurt (or dies) after being stuck on a winter highway. We do not have to go far, just remember the floor mat issue Toyota was floored with.

 

Re: Oh wow, the flatbeds are coming out

That would be a good idea until (if?) they get a more accurate way of predicting the amount of energy left in the battery.

It's nominal 80 miles or so range when the batteries are new is a useful range. But it requires a lot more attention and planning than drivers that are used to 400 miles ranges and gas gauges that tell them to fill up when they have 50 to 100 miles of range left are used to.

I can also see where Nissan is reluctant to shorten the apparent range that the driver sees when driving the car, because 80 miles isn't much compared to a gas engined car. But, it's better to lose some sales ahead of time than eventually have a minority of buyers publicly condem the car for stranding them

 

Re: Oh wow, the flatbeds are coming out

OK vid, but little in the way of numbers, kind of a bit of a fluff piece. With fuel costs in Europe and shorter commute distances the car could fit in well with needs.

 

Right on!, Still, EVs make an excellent choice for a second car in the family.

 

Re: Oh wow, the flatbeds are coming out

He WAS the Stig before he breached his confidentiality agreement and got sacked/fired. Now he's a nobody.

 

This leads to the point, anyone who owns a Leaf in an area where there are periodic natural disasters should have a portable gas generator in case electricity is cut off for an extended period of time. Either that or a second gas powered vehicle.

Having a generator is a good idea in general. However, I don't have one.

 

So, with 92 miles of a 100 mile range gone, the Leaf owner is at the airport at night, loads the Leaf to overflowing (wife and kids.....along with how much luggage?), and automatically assumes that he is going to have 3 miles of range to spare.

And this is Nissan's shortcoming?