Does GM REALLY want to phase out the Volt?

At speeds slower than 62 MPH, you can maintain a cruise at 0 RPM. So, none.

At 70 MPH, my observation was MPG well over 100 and sometimes in the 200's.

In other words, the system is surprisingly efficient. I can't wait to get HD video of that!

Doing nothing to reduce smog-related emissions was not an option for Toyota, despite GM choosing not to initially.
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Well two mode was kind of terrible for cars so that is how it is different for a start. The volt is actually designed quite well.

Cost is obviously true, but I don't see that adding a few clutches would kill interior room so much. The volt loses interior room b/c it has a gigantic battery. If the volt had a 5kWh battery like the PiP it could fit under the back seat just like the regular prius battery.

 

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Some will buy these because of the tech, but most will have to do with how they perform.
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JUst the label is not enough, its how well its executed.

Clutches are quite small, the difference in motor size for the volt versus prius are also quite small. The leaf packages its battery under front seat and rear. A slightly longer volt could package its battery without the T, but would lose some of the design elements. GM is reported to be working on a blended plug in cruze for 2014, with 3 back seats and smaller battery.

For the 2 missing modes on the pip versus volt, the pure series operation is not missing. My prius has gone into generator mode when stopped in traffic jams to run the AC, once its moving there is no advantage to serial mode over parellel/serial. The other missing mode, non-blended EV appears to be on european cars as city EV. Both are there, the big difference is down to the implementation details and size of the batteries. Both are good cars but won't sell in high volumes in the next couple of years because of price.

 

The current draw will not be the same. For example, Volt merging into highway will cost you 30-45 min charge. Prius PHV will wisely use gas to avoid long recharges.

No, it works in power-compound mode. It does not work the same as patented HSD as Volt's PSD setup has input and output in reverse, like the original expired TRW Patent.

You are the exception. Running Volt with average electricity will use more energy than Prius liftback or PHV. If saving a bit more gas justifies using more fossil fuel, then Volt is a good choice. It is important to look beyond vehicle efficiency and include the fuel production as well.

 

What does that have to do with missing sales expectations?
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Very little compare to wind resistance. Volt's 10 hour charge gets drain in 35 mins @65 mph, 25 mins @75 mph and 15 mins @85 mph. Gasoline is superior at those speed due to energy density and refueling speed.

Volt using 3 clutches make it a mechanical transmission. HSD is a pure electric transmission.

Exhaust Heat Recovery reduces warmup time to 42 secs. In comparison, Volt needs a few mins. It also enabled eAT-PZEV emission. 2012 Volt requires additional hardware to get eAT-PZEV.

EHR also heats up the cabin faster, reducing the need for bigger battery, beefed up electric heater and preheating feature. All those important roles justify the existence and by that, it is not a dead weight.

Volt has many dead weight with under-utilized redundant components. They add weight weight, complexity and cost.

 

If Volt has 5 kWh battery, it can't feed enough power (111 kW) to the motor. Gas engine will need to assist to move the SUV weight compact car.

It is a dead end architecture due to the limitation of the battery. It is a battery abusive design because the gas engine is abolished from being a team member.

 

On what the Volt? For one thing the two mode hybrids sucked so the consumer thinks GM can't make a hybrid to save their lives. So it actually does have something to do with it. Other than that not very much which is rather the point. Most people really have no clue how these vehicles work or what the tradeoffs are. Even here you have silly comments such as "wisely using gas to merge" that make no sense at all.

The only time it is wise to burn gasoline is when the heater is running so the waste heat is being useful. Otherwise it makes no difference whatsoever. There are plenty of arguments in favor of blended mode hybrids, but they all revolve around cost savings. Using cheaper lower quality batteries saves a ton of money.

 

Of course, dodge the question an ignore the point. RPMs below 62 in a pure EV mode wasn't question. It was how would energy loss would spinning the ICE in speeds above 62mph effect m/g2 efficiency? Even without the ICE spinning there is still some loss in the m/g2 spinning the ring gear. Great that it is so efficient despite the loss, but a simple clutch to disengage m/g2 from the ring gear would make EV operations even more efficient.

The point is that there was more in consideration than simply drawing too much from the battery or using gas is better, and Toyota choose to sacrifice some efficiency for cost.

Since when is CO a smog-related emission? The measured emissions of the Volt meet SULEV II and PZEV levels. They aren't Prius low, but many cars with those ratings don't. Considering it meant losing out on incentives that would of help sales, I doubt vary much GM choose not to meet required emissions.

So the sun, planet, and ring gears are composed of pure electrons. Gotch ya.

But it adds complexity which goes against your first point of Toyota keeping things simple. You also didn't answer how adding a regenerative semi-by wire braking system, that still feels like a traditional hydraulic one, any less complex than using one to three simple clutches in the transmission?

 

Actually, I made that comment. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it is silly. Running as engine to merge into highway makes more sense than running it at the stop light performing engine maintenance mode.

Using the right fuel for the right condition makes total sense when the battery is still heavy, expensive and recharges in hours instead of mins.

To merge into highway with electricity, you'll need heavier more expensive motor, battery and inverter. You'll need liquid cooling to handle it which then add extra weight and complexity for safety. It is a cascade effect. This is why it is wise to size the electric propulsion power to average rather than peak.

When you have two power sources, use both for peak power. It makes a huge difference.

Any reason why you are not driving a Volt but a Prius (per your profile)?

 

That was a confusing/misleading question with the mention of a spinning ICE. If I understand what you are asking now, you want to know about losses related to ALL components not able to disconnect without a clutch available, right?

If that's the case, we must also address efficiency of the electric-motors themselves. Also, keep in mind how dynamic real-world driving is verses generalized measures scribbled on paper.

And since I already pointed out MPG would be in the 100's, what else is there to provide? That isn't 9999, so there's clearly a loss. But with deminishing returns, the purpose of being a hybrid is to strike the optimum balance of priorities... which brings us back to SALES.
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The loss is very small. If I coast, HSD has to regen to simulate auto transmission drag. The ICE spin loss is a few hp and the auto tranny simulation end up with a few hp recharge in the HV battery.

You could say it is half the torque converter loss, which Prius lacks.

They are the mean to transmit power. It is totally different than 3 clutches changing configuration mechanically as in the Volt.

EHR does not add complexity because the alternative to achieve the same result require more hardware (complexity). That's keeping it simple.

I do not understand your question about regen brake and transmission complexity comparison. Can you state it differently?

 

Well you should have explained more then

What you are really arguing is just what I said. COST. Sizing the components increases cost. The engine running at a stop light is a total red herring and you should really stop trying to use it to argue against the volt. It makes no sense. The PiP will have to leave the engine running sometimes as well due to emissions regs. Just the way life is.

Why? B/C a volt is freaking expensive. I won't be driving a PiP at first either.

 

Look at the result. Cost is not the only consequence. SUV weight, 37 MPG and premium gas requirements are the direct or indirect results of NOT using the gas engine when it makes sense to do.

 

How much does this sucker weigh? I went to the official Volt website and maybe I'm just dumb, but I couldn't find the weight listed anywhere. I think it's usually given in "Dimensions" but it doesn't seem to be here:
2012 Chevy Volt Electric Car Features and Specs | Chevrolet

 

The Volt uses clutches in order to isolate the drive motor from the ICE in order to reduce losses while in EV mode. The use of clutches is portrayed as bad thing here because of the assumption that increased complexity always equates to decreased reliability, and whether or not it increases efficiency, it's assumed a bad thing.

Regen braking increase efficiency. It also adds complexity.

If complexity with purpose is bad, why is it a plus that Toyota uses a complex braking system?

 

What hardware complexity does it add? The motor-generators are already generators to regen the battery under other conditions. I imagine there is an electrically-controlled something to block friction braking, how is that done?? Would it be the same thing that regulates antilock? Other than that, isn't the rest just software??

 

He likes being melodramatic with the SUV talk.
The Volt weighs 3700lbs.
The outgoing Lexus 250h was, at most, 100lbs lighter.
The new Camry hybrid is, at most 270lbs lighter.
The Leaf is 350lbs lighter.
The Coda is likely 280lbs lighter.

The Volt is no light weight. Batteries are heavy. There is no getting around that, and GM decided to use a 35% SOC buffer as opposed to the Prius' 20%. With the positive reports on the Volt's handling, I think they put the weight to some good use for distribution and lowering the center.

Calling it SUV weight is just propaganda to get readers to think of Tahoes, Expeditons, Sequias, and such. The Volt is 260lbs lighter than the Equinox, which is what usbseawolf is comparing it to. A SUV that competes with the Escape, CR-V and Rav4. I don't think anyone think of them as heavy weights.

 

Edmunds said base Volt weights 3781 lbs.

That's very heavy for a compact car. Heavier than luxury full size sedans like Buick Regal. A base Equinox SUV weights 3777 lbs.

 

1 kW loss above 62 mph justifies adding a clutch? Zero loss under 62 mph. When you have 2 already, adding the third one is not bad right?

Huh? Regen brake reuses the existing hardware. It allows downsizing of the friction brakes. It also put less stress on the gas engine not having to recharge the battery, possibly downsize as well.