Did you know -- We're being recorded in our Prius....

Sorry, I missed this and failed to respond.

After reading posts after this, I will add the following: I have once again confirmed, at least with my company and the manufacturers we supply, that no funds are contributed from anyone outside, including insurance companies, and no data is collected for use by anyone but us to either analyze performance during an event to ensure things operated properly or to record information that may be helpful to a service technician during service. That said, let's separate air bag computers from all others.

For the method I am aware of, air bag computers keep a running buffer of information as it occurs real time in RAM. This data is continuously overwritten as new information is obtained. No information is stored unlesss either a diagnostic code is set or an air bag deploys. The diagnostic code data can be erased, the "crash" data may be able to be erased depending on various situations. Your real time, non-event data is not being recorded.

For all other computers, as mentioned by someone else, a running buffer keeps certain parameters available for storage in the event of a diagnostic fault. Each computer and each manufacturer has different storage capabilities and mostly depends on how much information is requested for capture to aid in service diagnosis. This can amount to a single code only, a code with some data, or a code with numerous parameters that occurred before and during the diagnostic fault to aid in recreation. No real time data is being stored, although some computers do save certain parameters long term, such as mileage achieved, engine run hours, top speed, maximum RPM, etc., again depending on the manufacturer and the box recording the information.

As for the erasing, most manufacturers include algorithms that erase the codes after a certain number of events. This includes ignition cycles without fault reoccurrence, drive cycles without reoccurrence, an "erase fault codes" message from an off board scan tool or onboard Driver Information Center, and a few other cases depending again upon the box and use. Typically this is as short as several ignition cycles and as many as several hundred drive cycles (vehicle must be driven to a minimum speed during the ignition cycle to count as a drive cycle).

Codes and various parameters have been stored since about 1980. You can find much of the potential information stored by looking at the service manual for the vehicle and reading the diagnosis section. You will see codes, parameters which might be available, and information regarding the methods which will clear the codes. Big brother is really not watching at this point. He might in the future, but the vehicle manufacturers have resisted to date any attempt to gain access to the information in the boxes for any use other than service or research and development. Can a service tech tell you that when your air bag deployed you were going 115 mph, slammed on the brakes, and hit something (or appeared to hit something based on the sensor input) at 95 MPH? Yes. Or he could confirm your complaint that your air bag deployed at 25 mph while you were doing nothing because the sensor or software THOUGHT you hit something. This information has been vital when false deploy recalls have occurred in determining the cause was the software or sensor, not the driver. The same is true for engine controls, brake controls, etc. Without this information, the service technician is blind and can only guess at why something a driver claims happened occurred. Again, this could be a bad part, bad software, or the driver. This information allows engineering to be involved in the analysis and provide software fixes or part redesigns when needed. There is no conspiracy, and no insurance request for the information.

 

Yeah! Like thats going to happen. :mrgreen:

Tom M.

 

Check out this response from Toyota:

ME: I had a question about the car's 'black box'. I have read that the car records information in it's computer. I wanted to know what kind of information it records and how long it keeps the information. Does it record my speed, when I do maintenance on the car? Does it record all the time or only when I'm in an accicent?

TOYOTA: The information you are requesting regarding the black box is proprietary information and is not available to the public.

That leaves me with a nice warm feeling. Thanks Toyota.

-Peter B

 

Not only does it have one...

but California State law requires that it's presence in the car be disclosed to the buyer upon purchase. I specifically asked if the Prius had a "black box" and was told no, since I was NOT buying the lo-jack or gps nav stuff it did not have one.

Wonder if I can get any money for that little bit of ignorance?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA\";p=\"70907)</div>

Ah.. i was reading some of this thread and to tell you the truth, some info in here doesn't pass the smell test..

Insurance companies may want this stuff.. but they will simply put the pressure on by raising rates. And once these things are installed.. assuming they are, do you think everyone will change their habits and thus reduce the cost to the insurance companies? Will you be required to come into local police station to have your black box scanned for violations where no evidence is extant that you have broken the law? (Like requiring you come in once a month for your drug test even though you have never been charged with illegal drug use or possession). Or is this really just a better tool to help the sharpen their statistics and costing analysis accordingly..

They will never PAY the manufacturers to do so... They may lobby to get it in and then YOU will pay.

And about the info it records... and the stuff it may help you prove wasn't your fault, assuming you are in an accident.. Now.. I drive over the speed limit all the time. Bout like most normal people. I don't race or run red lights or drive the wrong way on the interstate, or drink and drive etc etc etc. But every single day I get out on the road, I probably do at least 5 mph over the speed limit somewhere. Now.. am I worried bout big brother finding out and fining me using my black box.. HELL NO. But if one of these things is in my car and I get in an accident and it isn't my fault and its my word against the other driver and this box proves them wrong then its worth having it and I don't care about the fact that is indicates that I drive 70mph on the 55mph interstate...

Don't worry about big brother. he can't even stop terrorists crossing the the boarder from Mexico to the US much less put you in speeders prison...My great-great-great grand-pappy didn't worry about a tractor replacing his old mule and I aint gonna worry about black boxes in my future cars (and neither should you)..

 

I guess I just want the customer to be informed as to what specifically is being collected and how it can be used. I think that's only fair.

I just picture a scene where I might have some trouble with my engine in a year. I take it to Toyota and they say they won't cover the repairs because I didn't maintain my vehicle. I do all my oil changes and I have all receipts but thay pulled a code from the ECU that said I went 500 miles over my required oil change.

I know this is an extreme example that will likely not happen but I'm just hoping that we will be given specific information as to what our car is recording. (If I know my car records how many miles I drive with the 'maintenience required' light on... I will be VERY sure to do my oil changes at the EXACT milage to avoid any confrontations later)

-Peter B

 

Peter, maybe you need to reply to Toyota's reply, citing the California law, and you are exercising your right to the information the requires them to provide.

TotusPorcus, only one problem with you driving 25 miles over the speed limit yet the accident otherwise being the other guy's fault. You can, and probably would get a ticket for driving over the speed limit, and with 25 over, that could be considered reckless driving. If the other guy does not get cited, you are at fault because of your ticket. If both of you get a ticket, then it is divided by percentage. Reckless driving violation holds heavy weight against you.

 

Hey Dan..

I would like to write to Toyota again but after looking at the law closer I'm not sure if they have to comply. The law says that they have to disclose if the vehicle has an "event data recorders (EDR)". It doesn't say that they have to tell us what it records or how long it stores the info. The manual does say there is an EDR. I just want more specifics.

Also the law applies to all motor vehicles manufactured on or after July 1, 2004. I think mine was made in Oct. 2003.

Maybe we'll never know....

-peter

 

Those that are concerned about the ownership of the EDR and its data might find the following of interest:

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000380039961/

North Dakota makes vehicle black box data owner property