Did you consider the Honda Clarity before your Prius Prime?

Obscenely expensive and horribly inefficient.

Compare to a BEV that has a pretty clear 10 year path to $50 a kWh for the battery, 80+% wall to wheels already, and trivial (relatively) infrastructure costs.

 

Wouldn't any heat pump BEV require a back up resistance heating system because you can't get Heated Dehumidified Defrosting and at some gadawful low temp heat pumps don't make heat?

Keep in mind, even large Li-ion battery storage facilities have a cell-lifetime. Especially if they are deep cycled daily.
Perhaps large stationary Hydrogen tanks may have a much longer life, (+25 yrs or longer with periodic inspections).

 

My understanding is the Model 3 uses a more efficient, permanent magnet motor instead of the induction motors used in the past.

Both cars have the same electrical heater that warms a fluid. Just the BEV version also has a heat pump that they claim,"By using the heat pump electrical energy of up to 3 kW can be saved in favorable conditions." Heating the fluid that then warms the cabin means there is a thermal mass so the heating electrical load can be turned off under acceleration demands.

Bob Wilson

 

Yes at the moment it may not make economic sense.
But that is what research is for.

"clear path to $50/kWh batteries"? Where are you getting that pie in the sky research from?
Have you read about all the jockeying to nail down the limited resources for Li-Ion production?

These are still the early days!

Remember the first commercial BEV's and lack of a standard infrastructure?
Heck, this far into BEV's and we still don't have a standard for DCFC.
We have Tesla with their proprietary Superchargers (which they won't share, even for a profit making fee), then Chademo (from Japan) and finally the winner (I hope), SAE CCS (which Teslas can share for a $450 adapter and paying for the electrons).

And as you say, this BEV infrastructure here now!
Except for the CCS cross-country ability, but it's coming!
Maybe Tesla's next owner will make the Supercharger network available to other BEV's with a Tesla-CCS adapter.

Of course none of this concerns Toyota owners with their limited EV's.

ps, Sorry, couldn't get the 'multi-quote' to work today...

 

From the link:

"Compression, Storage, and Dispensing Costs $2.00/kg H2"

 

There is no "may" about it.
When the system costs drop 10x, it will *still* be way too expensive as a car.
And the efficiency will still be 2x - 3x times worse.
And the reliability will be much worse.

Look, I put up PV panels in my yard, that amortized over their useful life fuel my EV for 0.5 cents a mile.
A Kg of hydrogen moves a car about 65 miles and costs ~ $15, so ~ 23 cents a mile. Are you getting this ? You paid $15 to move your H2 car 65 miles; I paid 32 cents. And by the way, that hydrogen fueling station was heavily subsidized by taxpayer money. The 'infrastructure' from my panels to the car amounted to a $500 EVSE ... which can be bought for under $400 for a slower model that works well. The infrastructure needed for home H2 is ~ $100,000

Details matter here, and H2 as a car choice is obscenely expensive.

You have it backwards. Tesla has offered to open up its Supercharger network to ANY manufacturer contingent on the partner sharing in the costs. So far as I know no one has steeped forward, so Tesla's fee is unknown.

 

For a Model3 to be per-mile cost-competitive with my Prime, Tesla would have to pay me in excess of $0.15/mile for the energy it uses.

 

JB Straubel.
He extrapolates based on an average 7% annual drop in price per kWh.
Near term, he expects under $100 a kWh by 2020.

And as a market marker, Tesla will be offering trucks for sale in a few years. The larger pack is offered for $75 a kWh for the additional capacity. That is retail cost.

Your ignorance does not make something 'pie in the sky.'

 

The cost to upgrade from a 75kWh Model S to a 100kWh Model S is $19,500 on the web site - $780/kWh.

 

And the cost to upgrade a Model 3 is ~ $360 a kWh.

But these are retail prices; the trends and costs/kWh I mentioned are for the manufacturer.
Except for the truck -- that was a retail price.

 

Just like your quotes for hydrogen prices in what is essentially a research project, while industrial hydrogen costs about $1/kg.

 

Are you talking about industrial H2 that is not compressed, not transported, not dispensed into a car and made from fossil fuel ?

When I can fuel up an H2 car from clean energy for $1/Kg just about any place in the US within a 100 mile radius, let me know. And while you are it, put a price tag on that infrastructure.

 

Is compressed, is transported by pipeline, and is made from natural gas.

Probably before you can put 120kWh into your $6000 150kWh battery in 5 minutes.

The whole reason to do an H2 PHEV is because batteries suck. If we had 800Wh/kg $30/kWh batteries, there would be no need. But we don't and that's why we call 300 mile BEVs "long range" when in a conventional car that would be considered a laudably unacceptable total range. The last car I had with a 300 mile range was built in 1972 and it could at least be refueled just about anywhere in 5 minutes. Since then, all of my cars and trucks have had ranges of over 450 miles.

 

I'll be happily driving a Tesla in few months; you can wait for the H2 car of your dreams. I just hope you pay a reasonable carbon tax

 

You hope you'll be driving one - Tesla's spend a lot of time in the shop.

Unless your house is entirely off-grid, you are charging with grid power, which is still something like 70% fossil fuel driven.

 

The PV in my yard covers my home and my cars, with kWh left over I export to the grid.

 

Then you're running on grid power, like I said. Your solar system is just contributing to the grid mix.

 

No, my system is covering my usage and more.

 

If a system is connected to the grid, it's a fundamental property of the grid that you cannot tell what source was supplying power to what load. Thus, all grid-connected systems are sharing the power they receive from all sources on that grid.

 

Welcome to my ignore list.