Did you consider a Jetta TDI before going Prius?

Normally, I don't debate 'facts' but seek hard, engineering data. This means something that is easily reproducible by any competent engineer or technician any day of the week. As long as it is independent of "who" (aka., the "Clever Hans" problem,) we're on the same sheet of paper.

Credible sources of Prius data took time to be released. For example, there was no 2010 Prius EPA data until nearly three weeks after I got mine. Had this information been available when this thread started, it would have been posted then. But that was then and this is now.

We have new facts and data from credible sources. It would be unfair to sit on them. Over time, this body of knowledge grows larger and larger. For example, Ken@Japan joined the 1,000 mile tank club after this thread started.

Understand I only know the poster from what he volunteered. But his claim of 2010 Prius expertise is thin and I'm beginning to suspect his Jetta knowledge is imprecise ... the use of anecdotal stories instead of hard engineering data is the signature.

I would like to rent a Jetta TDI for a couple of days. That would be enough to map out mph vs MPG and do some hill climbing tests. Alternatively, any of the Jetta TDI or Golf advocates could use their own vehicle and do the same and post it here. Then we would be able to compare and really understand what these vehicle are capable of. But I'm not so curious that I want to buy or lease a Jetta TDI and that is the implication of posting Jetta advocacy in a Prius forum.

Now it is entirely possible that one or more of the Jetta TDI advocates may want to take up the challenge. The methodology is simple:

• Find a relatively flat stretch of highway at least 10 miles long.
• Accelerate to the target speed, set the cruise control, and reset the MPG display and trip meter
• At the end of 10 miles, read out the MPG and average speed
• Do a second run in the reverse direction
• Note the temperature
• Repeat for different speeds 50-80 mph

The hill climb test needs to find a run up a fairly constant grade, 6% is ideal. The length of the up-grade should be at least 1 mile. The protocol is:

• Set the speed using cruise control before reaching the bottom 'mark' of the hill
• Reset the MPG display and trip meter
• Read out the values at the top, the same 'exit' mark
• Repeat for different speeds 50-80 mph (or whatever is comfortable)
• Note the temperature
• Using Google earth, GPS or a topographical map, note the 'mark' and 'exit' points and altitude change

If you have different fuels available, bio-diesel and petro diesel, using the hill test at the higher speeds is a good way to compare the relative energy content of the fuels.

Bob Wilson

 

I will have to second that. Mike is definitely not a troll and he has contributed to a constructive discussions between Diesel/Gas/hybrid.

I understand Bob's passionate response too but I think it should be directed more toward the OP and less toward Mike.

There are plenty of hybrid exclusive premium features that a lot of people are unaware of, therefore they expect them for free when doing comparison. Bob has pointed those out very well to the readers considering both cars. There are also misconception such as "Diesel is suitable for highway but it is a weakness for hybrid" but Prius is as good or better than Jetta TDI in terms of MPG and CO2 but with much lower smog forming emission.

 

I watched the Edmunds video above and agree with most of the things they say about the 2009 Prius, except the fuel economy.

Edmunds claims an average of 39 MPG. How are they driving the car? I can't miss 50 MPG summer / 46 MPG winter in mine, average.

They must have been gunning the Prius constantly to get that. Big discredit to Edmunds on that.

However, their other comments ring quite true with me.

1) My non-touring 09 is no tiger on backroads. It is safe and secure, but is not very willing to carve up twisty roads even at moderate speeds. I pulled over a number of times on a very long 2-lane backroad (Hwy 128 IIRC) to let cars by. Some locals want to go places quickly.

I'm surprised they didn't find the touring a little more eager.

2) The Gen2's notoriously bad / awkward driver seating, tiny front seat bottoms - 'uncomfortable economy car'. I with ya there Edmunds. Gen3 corrects all of that.

3) Power / acceleration - Sometimes the Prius needs a serious kick on the gas pedal to get moving - climbing a steep hill, needing to accelerate ahead of a fast approaching car. It gets the job done, but lets one know it's working hard at it.

------------

So, I give Edmunds decent credit for this review except for fuel economy. Lot more to consider for total cost of ownership though.

They need to redo the test against a 2010 Prius V

 

I considered a TDI. After reading a lot of comments comparing the TDI and Prius I thought I should at least take a test drive. In fact I was leaning towards a TDI since my previous car (some time ago now) had been a Golf that had been a good vehicle. The dealer visit was a bad start. Although I had arranged a test drive, the sales guy who was supposed to be meeting me was not there, and nobody knew where he was. There was no great rush to try to help me. Somehow I thought car dealers these days would be falling over themselves to greet a potential customer, particularly as I was the only one in there, but not in this case. I had to wait some time for them to get the car ready, as the original sales guy had not told anyone else I was coming.

As for the drive itself, maybe I was a victim of too-high expectations. So many comments had praised the TDI so highly that I guess I was expecting more than I got. It was a good car, fun to drive, but it did not blow me away. Both the interior and exterior looked disappointingly bland. I'm not a fan of chrome and the detailing on the front looked tacky to me (I understand they are removing this in the 2010 version.) When the car was pulled up there was no mistaking the diesel engine noise, although it was not obvious once driving.

In contrast the Prius was better than I expected in almost every way, the ride, the outside and inside appearance, the features. What really sealed the deal was the hatchback. The extra utility compared with a trunk is so significant that the TDI would have had to have been really special to overcome that.

The Golf TDI coming later this year would have been more of an interesting competitor if I could wait, but I need to buy right now, so the Prius was the easy choice.

 

You can get Jetta Wagon for utility but that'll cost you extra $2,000. I can't get over the look of the wagon like a funeral car. That's just my opinion.

Prius is more of a driver oriented car because of the Multi-Information Display and Touch Tracer to reduce your eyes off the road. It has the car of the future feel to it with the patents to back it up. You won't find them in another car (non-Toyota?) for at least 20 years (until patents expire).

They both are very good on the highway without traffic congestion but Prius will have no contest during traffic jams, construction or accident on the highway as well as the city traffic.

Prius is much lower in Smog and Global Warming emissions.

 

F8L, fuzzy1, usbseawolf2000, thanks very much for the vote of confidence

If no one here gives a flying fig about the TDI then that is all the more reason for me to post. If nobody cares about the car, how will anybody have the knowledge or experience to answer simple questions like john's on whether the TDI can deliver 50mpg, or correct Bob's estimates on highway mileage? That is why I am here. Not to push VW. I'm actually not sure how you get the impression that I am pushing VW? All I've done recently is answer a few simple questions. The i30 is a nice car and I wish we got it here. And don't worry, I do head over to tdiclub as well for some laughs and moral support

 

Bob, I'm not sure what to make of you. Sometimes you seem like a chatbot and fail my Turing test. So I want to make things very clear in case I am talking to a human. My car is a 2001 Golf. All references to fuel economy made by me were for 2009 Jettas, until you brought up my car. I do not own a Jetta. I participated in two tests of 2009 Jettas, one of an automatic sedan, and one of a manual wagon. My favorite ride is my car but I did not come to chat about it. I came to chat about the 2009 and other modern diesels. Since this thread is asking about the 2009, let's try to keep our discussion to that model, unless the 2001 is somehow relevant. So far, it's not.

We met at Hybridfest 2008. I guess you forgot that. Check your bell the hybrid petition from back then, you may find an interesting surprise. To my knowledge, I have never claimed to be a 2010 Prius expert. Please show me where I have claimed to be an expert and I will modify that statement. I only claim to have an understanding of how it works and was tired of reading what I already knew. That is all. Also, please let me know how you suspect my Jetta knowledge is imprecise. I'll be sure to clarify things for you.

Are you saying my signature is hard engineering data? Because I could provide some more data for you if that's the case.

Sportwagen 6MT:

	Column 1	Column 2	Column 3	Column 4	Column 5	Column 6	Column 7	Column 8	Column 9	Column 10	Column 11	Column 12
0	Date	Odometer (miles)	Driver	Temps (Degrees F)	Segment Distance (miles)	Tank Distance (miles)	Segment FCD (mpgUS)	Tank FCD (mpgUS)	Notes
1	05/28/09	4	108	Ken	57	0	0	NA	NA	Topped off in Chicago.
2	05/28/09	4	232	Ken	57 - 64	125.9	125.9	60.7	60.7	Day - Break and Driver Swap.
3	05/28/09	4	401	Wayne	64 - 71	167.3	293.2	70.3	65.8	Day - Break and Driver Swap.
4	05/28/09	4	530	Mike	71 -78	129.3	422.5	66.3	65.9	Day - Break and Driver Swap.
5	05/28/09	4	645	Jud	73 - 80	115.2	537.7	68.1	66.4	Day and Evening - Break and Driver Swap.
6	05/28/09	4	799	Ken	66 - 73	154.2	691.9	59.5	64.7	Night - Break and Driver Swap.
7
8	05/29/09	4	889	Wayne	65 - 68	89.2	781.1	70.5	65.3	Night - Irmo	SC - Kacey's for the night.
9	05/29/09	5	016	Jud	68 - 84	127.4	908.5	64.4	65.2	Day - Moorseville	SC - EV Innovations visit and Shell Fill. Tank Actual: 908.5 mi./14.153 gal = 64.19 mpg
10									New Tank
11	05/29/09	5	122	Wayne	82 - 84	106.3	106.3	84.4	84.4	Day - Moorseville	SC to Columbia	SC for Dinner. 650' segment fall.
12	05/29/09	5	152	Mike	73 - 78	29.0	135.3	69.9	80.8	Night - Columbia	SC to Irmo	SC for the night.
13
14	05/30/09	5	258	Wayne	71 - 76	106.9	242.2	65.1	73.1	Day - Break and Driver Swap. 600' segment climb.
15	05/30/09	5	394	Jud	76 - 81	136.0	378.2	66.2	70.3	Day - Break and Driver Swap. 300' segment climb.
16	05/30/09	5	565	Mike	78 - 82	170.3	548.5	71.6	70.7	Day - Break and Driver Swap.
17	05/30/09	5	657	Ken	76 - 79	92.8	641.3	70.3	70.7	Day and Evening - Finish at Jud's Home. 200' segment climb.
18
19	05/31/09	5	763	Wayne	63 - 69	105.7	747.0	71.1	70.7	Day - Break and Driver Swap. 200' segment climb.
20	05/31/09	5	879	Mike	69 - 74	115.9	862.9	75.7	71.4	Day - Break and Driver Swap. 200' segment fall.
21	05/31/09	6	028	Ken	64 - 79	149.2	1012.1	75.1	71.9	Day - Break and fuel-up. 200' segment fall. Tank Actual: 1012.1 mi./14.704 gal = 68.83 mpg

Jetta sedan automatic:

Taking up your challenge sounds like a horrendous waste of fuel. In addition, results for my car would not be representative of what the 2009 TDI would achieve. If you really want your challenge taken up in an outdated TDI, come see me at Hybridfest in a couple weeks. If you pay for the fuel and CO2 offsets, we may be able to work something out so you can do some testing in my car. But in the end, it doesn't matter it's not how the car does in graphs and charts. It's what the car will do day in and day out, on the road and outside contrived test conditions, that matters. So you can make your graphs, then I will show you how to drive it for better fuel economy without any graphs.

 

this thread could go on for literally forever but I own both a 2007 Prius and a 2001 VW Beetle.
The Prius currently is at almost 60,000 miles, hasn't had one single issue whatsoever.
The Beetle is currently at 110,000 miles, Now lets go through its history, at just over 60,000 miles I had to practically replace every single vaccuum hose because they basically wore out because of heat. Then at about 75,000 miles the transmission failed (to the tune of $3000) <-- by the way that was the negotiated down price. Another month or so and then the Water pump goes out (cracked plastic impellar), another month or so and an ignition coil goes out, then the MAF, a few months later its the front O2 sensor, then before it hits the recommended timing belt change the tensioner on the t-belt goes and destroys the cylinder head <--(this cost me about $1200 - $1500 to do rebuild this head myself). I am pretty mechanically inclined and very good with all my maintenance and document everything that is done and the VW over and over again proves to me that it is made of nothing but substandard cheapest bidder parts. It's almost like a VW senses when you have paid it off because even when its paid for you still end up paying for it (we have a credit card that has a fairly high balance because of it.) If you ever buy a VW (or Audi) just remember that they are high maintenance and expensive to maintain.

 

The only thing I'm interested in are vehicles and their characteristics, which is why I seek reproducible, engineering data. For example, the table volunteered lacks two critical pieces of information:

• duration of each segment (minutes or clock time) - allows calculation of the mph
• exact coordinates or altitude - something to let us know the potential energy change

If you can bring a detailed log, something that can fill in these missing pieces, we'll both be happy. Adding time and altitude fills in the blanks.

So this evening, I ran a little trip in our NHW11, 2003 Prius, to pickup something for my wife:

This ~30 mile round trip involved connecting up a trailer, buying and loading the motorized chair, and returning home. Speeds varied but it wasn't a driving stunt. It was picking up a piece of medical equipment to improve the quality of my wife's life. The family dog, Kiwi, accompanied me and when we got back to the house, the MPG was higher than my license plate, my lifetime 70,000 miles. But my mileage on any particular trip doesn't matter because three and a half years ago, I mapped the MPG vs mph and I already know how to stay in fuel efficient speed ranges. I used and continue to use that data to safely and efficiently bring home something useful to make my wife's life better.

Knowledgeable Prius people know that:

• NHW11 Prius is not rated to tow anything
• My license plate is "old school" EPA City mileage

But because I know the mechanical and electrical systems of my Prius, I knew this trip was entirely practical. That is the type of knowledge that shows mastery of one's vehicle. That is the type of engineering data that shared, expands the utility so these tools, these vehicles, so they can improve the quality of our lives.

Now I have co-workers to love to play golf and others are bowlers. They live and die by their handicap and special plays. They seek out 'pros' to teach them how to play their games better. Offering to show me now to drive is as interesting as the prospect of taking up golf or bowling ... it isn't my cuppa.

So it looks like the only way I'll get Jetta TDI data is to someday rent one for couple of days and collect the missing data.

Bob Wilson

 

It looks like this whole Jetta TDI vs Prius drama is still getting wild comments here... all I can say is, at some point I was not sure which one I should get and at that time I myself fueled some of the hottest discussions here questioning the Prius attributes... but I have long past that stage... I decided to get the Prius a long time ago and I have got mine already! I'm really careless about the TDI at this point... Perhaps those who are still engaging so profoundly in such comparisons are still unsure about which one would be really better for them...

 

Sorry if I came across that way, and I expect you have seen in the past if I see what I think is a troll I will say that is what I think. At no time did I call Mike a troll, I didn't even make reference to a bridge! My only goal was to work out the motive for posting what came across to me as anti-Prius, pro-Jetta(diesel) opinion. I never wanted to attack anyone just wondering if time would be better spent on a Jetta forum where people looking for information about the Jetta would be looking.

You also know if you have been following my posts I have advised people not to get a Prius when their described situation told me it wasn't the car to suit their situation, ie, those with ultra-short commutes. I too have been shot (shut) down for saying these things but I continue to give my honest opinions anyway.

Yeah, I confess, I looked at a diesel Polo for about a minute and dismissed the idea. Personally I'd get the Hyundai i30 Diesel rather than a VW. Price is better and reputation, support and cost of maintenance would whip the VW. If I wanted a performance car a diesel wouldn't even make my shopping list. Personally I love driving my Prius and I am a petrol (gear) head. I have way more fun in my Prius than in the Holden Commodore I drive for work. If I was looking for a 4 seat 4 door performance car I'd be looking at a Toyota Aurion Sportivo ZR6, with 200kw and reasonable mass it outperforms many V8 sedans and handling is exceptional. Even fuel economy is quite respectable on the highway and when driven sensibly.

As I have no experience of TDi ownership or 2010 Prius ownership I shall now bow out of this discussion.

 

Interesting story, Bob. I have the elevation changes listed for about half of the segments. Is that not what you are asking for? As for speeds, we did not record that information. We kept speeds legal at all times, between the minimum and maximum posted speeds.

Unfortunately, your inability to answer my questions has not done anything to alleviate my concerns that I'm merely speaking with a chatbot. So I'll try to ask you again:

To my knowledge, I have never claimed to be a 2010 Prius expert. Please show me where I have claimed to be an expert and I will modify that statement. I only claim to have an understanding of how it works and was tired of reading what I already knew. That is all. Also, please let me know how you suspect my Jetta knowledge is imprecise. I'll be sure to clarify things for you.

You have me concerned that I am somewhere claiming to have 2010 Prius expertise, but I can't find where I said that. I said I understood it, but don't recall ever calling myself an expert at anything. I don't like to give false impressions, so if you could be so kind (you are a Southerner and believe in courtesy, after all!) and point me to where I made that statement so I can retract it. Thanks in advance.

We may still be able to make the charts in my car if you want. But in the end, that data may not be so useful. As with any car, the TDI has its own quirks and techniques that are required to extract what it has to offer. That type of information cannot be represented on a scatter plot, which is why I feel it's important to show you so that you can in turn show others when presenting your data. If you merely want to know how to stay in efficient speed ranges with the TDI, similar to what you use your Prius charts for, then we can go over that in the car in about 10 minutes without needing to burn all that fuel for your tests. No charts are required for that, and you won't need to rent a car for a couple days. Regards,

Mike

 

In this, we throughly agree. <boink>

Bob Wilson

 

I have purchased 2 Prius a 2004 and a 2007
I had ordered a 2010 for my daughter It took so long to come ,she wanted to look at the 2009 Jetta TDI, (which we purchased and cancelled our Prius)
The kids think the Jetta is more sporty and fun to Drive (i agree), so far we are getting between 36 and 42 MPH.
I do find the seating more comfortable in the Jetta and the Highway performance is way beyond the Prius.
I do like the quiteness of the Prius better even though the Jetta is very quiet
I would say either car is good and people should drive both before deciding, even though the commerical for VW sucks.

 

The Jetta definitely has its advantages. (Handling, Power, Appearance, Price) We did not consider a Jetta because of VW's historical reliability issues, and we wanted the utility of a hatch without the "wagon" look. I wasn't concerned about handing or power, since we have another car that excells in that category. I'm kinda shocked by the behavior of some overzealous prius fanatics on this forum.

 

I have to completely agree with you and picked the Prius for the same reasons. I'm surprised this is still a hot topic here, since I don't understand why some Prius owners will not let it go...

 

I too am a Prius owner and purchased a Jetta TDI for my son. Drove it to see Cornell and got 49.3 mpg. The car was comfortable and had enough room for all my son's stuff for going to college.

Both cars are great choices and each has their advantages. The VW is good for highway driving and the prius is best around town. VW does have a superior Nav system with built-in hard drive and real time traffic that works flawlessly.

 

The Prius is also good for highway driving. 50mpg on the highway should be a breeze. I get 50-53mpg on my freeway commute routinely. The 2010 should put you right in the 52-58mpg range depending on your speed.

 

I would not trade my Prius for a dozen Jetta's.

 

Prius is rock solid at any speed as it gets 48 to 51 MPG.
Jetta TDI has weakness in the city and no advantage on the highway as the new Prius handles as good or better (17" version).

TDI may meet today's emission but may not for future standard. Prius is so clean that it is a fraction of today's standard. Something to think about.

Jetta Navi is like $2k and it comes with HD.