Detroit's gung-ho for hybrids

A good product like the 2000 GMC Sierra that I special ordered? With the infamous Drum In Hat rear parking brake and rear disk brakes?

I special ordered that truck for towing a travel trailer after listening to the spiel of the GMC sales person. This salesperson really hyped the four wheel disk brakes, singling out the Tundra and its rear drum brakes as pathetically obsolete.

So the rear Drum In Hat naturally caused most of the problems I had with the truck.

That Sierra had anemic brakes. While towing I had to crank the trailer gain almost all the way to the max just to feel safe, which quickly wore my trailer brakes.

If I didn't bring it in every 4-6 months to adjust the parking brakes, they wouldn't hold the empty truck in my gently sloped driveway. Then conveniently off warranty, the rear parking shoes were shot and I was expected to fork over $400 for new ones.

I noticed that for 2005 GM very quietly went back to rear drum brakes. If you read their blurb, they claim "better parking brake performance, better pedal feel, stronger brakes ..."

How about the infamous Vortec 5.3 V8 Knock Knock Knock sound? After 5,000km mine sounded like a diesel when I first started it. GM still claims "carbon deposits" how in the h*** does a motor get "carbon deposits" after 3,000 miles??

How about that Vortec motor and the lopey idle? The idle was so lopey it felt like a solid lifter high duration camshaft in a hot rod. It took several reflashes to get rid of most of that lopey idle, though they never cured it.

How about the AutoTrak automatic transfer case and all those defective mode select switches? I went through several, including one off warranty at $120. How about the AutoTrak bad sensors?

Let's not forget the poorly designed front driveshaft and that Clunk Clunk sound. I was expected to cough up $300 for a "better" front driveshaft.

What I find truly amazing is that most brainwashed GM Sierra / Chevy Silverado owners actually ACCEPT things like POS rear parking brakes and POS Vortec motor! They even accept forking over $400 to "fix" their parking brakes. They accept 1 litre per 1,000 km as "normal" oil consumption in a Vortec 5.3 V8.

The stars must have aligned, my Vortec 5.3 "only" used 1 litre every 5,000km. I will admit with the 4.10 gears, it was great for towing, never lacked power. It just sucked at everything else, especially stopping.

I also bought new a 1990 Toyota 4Runner V6 and a 1992 Honda Prelude which I foolishly traded for that POS 2000 GMC. I never had *any* trouble with either the 4Runner or the Prelude, and to this day I especially miss the 4Runner.

I was raised around Detroit Iron, and my Dad refuses to buy anything else, with rare exceptions. For cars he has usually bought Buick's and - usually - has had good luck with them. My folks currently drive a 2003 Buick LeSabre Celebration Edition and I think it's a fine car.

My Dad bought a new van in 1976, a Dodge van, and he dumped that POS in 1979. They could never fix the stalling or the oil burning, which it did as soon as he drove it off the lot.

Yep, right in front of the stealership and it quit. RRRRrrrrrrrr RRRRRRrrrrrrr so he left the cursed thing right in the middle of the street, cars honking at him, and marched back into the stealership to yell at them.

In 1980 he bought a Toyota 4x4 pickup, his "puddle jumper" for farting around in. He always expected to break that "cheap" thing. Over 10 years and 227,000 miles he had zero problems, it amazed him. That sold me on Toyota.

He thought he'd try a Dodge product again - believing that windbag Iacocca - and in 1985 bought a Chrysler 5th Avenue. That thing was another POS, stalled in traffic with the A/C on, but that stopped once the A/C quit on him.

He went back to a Buick which he sold in 1995 to get a Ford Taurus. He had almost constant transmission, A/C, and electrical trouble, so he Lemon Lawed it. He got a '96 LeSabre which he drove until '04, getting a lease return '03 LeSabre.

At the same time, given the problems he has had over the years with domestic brands, he swears this is either his last car or the next one is a Toyota or Honda. At age 85, this may be his last car.

As far as "profit margins" have you been to Europe recently? I have to fly to the UK and Germany at least 2-3 times a year on business. While in Europe look around most of the vehicles are smaller than the Prius.

Yet the automakers over there appear to make money, or at least break even, producing those "death traps" as you call them. I've never seen a full sized pickup there, though a few turbodiesel 4 cyl from Toyota and Nissan.

Have you ever driven a VW Lupo 3L? I had a chance to go for a spin in one last time I was in Germany. It's a tiny commuter car, smaller than the VW Golf. It has a 3 cylinder turbodiesel that is rated for 3 Litre per 100km, or 94 MPG Imperial gallon. About 78 MPG in the U.S.

So I find it ironic that companies like GM bet the farm on pickups and SUV's, blew the wad, made up all these stories about the Prius and the Insight, and are now crying about the high price of gasoline hurting their sales. Tough.

We're all big boys and big girls here. The truth isn't always a pleasant thing, so deal with it. And if you think an average of $2.50 a gallon sucks, try gassing up a Dodge Quad Cab Hemi in France or Germany.

Thing is I actually LIKE some domestic brands, like my folks '03 LeSabre. A very sweet car, comfy and easy to drive. A coworker has an '04 Lincoln Navigator and I'm VERY impressed with the 4 wheel independent suspension and four corner air ride.

Honestly, the only reason I invite him and his wife out to my hobby farm is so we can ride out in his Navigator. Usually she insists we go alone for some well-deserved rest. Nothing better than a friend who also has a nice SUV, though the fuel economy truly sucks.

I'm not wishing for the demise of the Big Three, but at the same time I'm disgusted with them. Really really put off by them.

Many neat innovations - like you mentioned the EV1 (Why did GM crush all of them??? Hmmmm??? A "conspiracy" or they just wanted to get rid of their one nice car?) - have been either ignored or given away.

But they can come up with freakish designs like the Chrysler 300C. With gas at $2.50. Since it already has a Mercedes transmission and rear axle, why don't they stick in a Mercedes V6 turbodiesel and double the fuel economy?

Around 25 years of driving and the only real import problem I had was my Prius and that stall issue. The reflash cured it, so does a power cycle three times. The few domestic makes I've owned I've had a lot of trouble and have been screwed.

IMHO I consider THAT the Conspiracy Theory.

So grow up and maybe get into an Addiction Counselling program before your brain gets totally cooked.

 

Nope, they were not real. Ford Prodigy, GM Precept, and DC ESX3 were all diesel hybrid concept cars. They do 0-60 in 12 seconds. Weights 2,250 to 2,592 lbs. It would've cost $50,000 to make them. That's why they were never mass produced.

If you look at Prius, Toyota is making money on each Prius they sold. Prius does not extensively use Aluminun (just hood, hatch and bumpers?). Weights 2,890 lbs (between Corolla and Camry). Does 0-60 in about 10 seconds.

Toyota made Rav4 EV with Lead acid battery and then switched to NiMH. Rav4 EV run into dead end and hybrid picked up from there. Even Toyota engineers(non EV dept) made fun of the EV by calling it, "the battery carrier". Source: The Prius That Shook The World.

The reason Bush admin stopped the Supercar project was that they claimed people want SUVs instead of family cars.

 

So... the employee discount pricing is a good plan for profit?

Study, don't read. Owner data and engineering specs are what you should base judgement on.

There is no design basis to support that. GM's own press releases on their "dual-mode" hybrid system certainly don't warrant awe. It is a switching type hybrid, rather than the elegantly simple dynamic interaction of the power-split-device.

 

Man, you guys seem really bent out of shape about this. The fact is GM is the leader in the auto industry. Everyone else just follows. The proof is in all their concepts. Look at how long ago they perfected cilinder deactivation, in the late 70's. Now Honda has finally got around to using it. They had diesel cars ages ago. So they don't sell the concepts? Why because they know how to make money! They have the cars, now is not the right time to sell them. Look at all the studies, the american consumer does not lemons that have all kinds off issues like the current hybrids.

As far as American cars being reliable, they are, as long as they are not abused and serviced regularly.
You guys act like you want to buy a car and drive it for 10 years without ever taking it in for work.

You guys need to relax a bit. No sense in getting all huffy from some honest criticisum.

 

Well, I really like how they came out with their o-ring sealed electrical connectors, that saved all of us a lot of wiring grief.

But how do you define a "leader" anyway? If as your Conspiracy Theory claims they invented everything including oxygen, why didn't they market it?

IOW why did GM essentially give the hybrid market to Toyota and Honda? Even GM execs like Lutz finally admit they made a BIG boo-boo doing this. Or have you conveniently forgotten about this?

It reminds me of the original IBM PC, I'm old enough to remember when they first came out. IBM had a solid-gold winner on its hands and it somehow managed to turn the entire industry over to Intel, Dell, and Microsoft.

IBM's PC subsidiary was based in Boca Raton, FL. Based on some very damning documentaries that have been produced about this, the folks running the PC division simply couldn't convince the execs back in Armonk, NY, that they had a market leader and a winner on their hands.

All the execs could see was the old way of doing business, such as the S/370 and S/390 mainframes running OS/370, OS/390 and apps like CICS and DB/2. All fine durable systems, but IBM nearly went under by ignoring the market.

GM may have brought cylinder deactivation to the market, though not until 1981, but it was far from "perfected." Are you referring to the V8-6-4 that was optional in some Cadillacs?

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...ven=Y&cm_ite=PI

How about things like Variable Camshaft Phasing? The Germans have used this (BMW, Porsche, Mercedes Benz) a LOT longer than GM. Hmmm, if I recall so has Lexus and Toyota (VVT-i).

Oh God please tell me you're not referring to those POS diesel V8's that GM dumped on an unsuspecting public!

:roll:

The "diesel" motor that was actually a converted 350 Chevy? Geez, there is a good reason why they didn't last very long. GM had to "apologise" for that boo-boo too. Remember the 6.2 used in half ton pickups?? Another putrid POS.

I notice that GM finally has a "proper" turbodiesel for a pickup. Not surprisingly, it's designed and produced by Isuzu (Now a GM subsidiary) in Moraine, OH, at a joint-ownership plant.

Also not surprisingly, the reliability and power is light years beyond the 6.2 and 6.5 garbage that GM produced. The direct injection is far superior, but then again it's made by Bosch, a German company. No more of that Stanadyne garbage.

Like how the electronic Stanadyne used in the 6.5 will cook itself in short order. There is now a thriving aftermarket producing liquid-cooled injection control to replace the Stanadyne 6.5 control:

http://www.heathdiesel.com/P/HDP1296

http://www.thedieselpage.com/reviews/FSDCooler.htm

I'm still curious why GM claims they can't figure out how to produce a 3,4,5, or 6 turbodiesel for small cars or pickups. Isuzu has been making motors like that for only 50 years or so.

And GM didn't "invent" the diesel motor. A somewhat odd German by the name of Dr. Rudolph Diesel (Hmmm so that's where the name comes from!) invented the diesel motor, unveiled at the 1900 World's Fair in Paris, France.

I still shudder just reading your line about GM having diesel cars "ages ago." I'm still unsure if you're just uninformed or making it up as you go along, like a real dyed-in-the-wool GM supporter.

Mercedes had reliable diesel cars at least 50 years ago. I've known folks who still have fond memories of their VW Rabbit diesel, which was on the market about the same time as those cursed GM 5.7/6.2 diesels

According to recent financial reviews, GM is in deep s*** wrt their finances. So I rather doubt they know how to "make money." They took a short-sighted market view and bet the farm on folks dumb enough to keep buying pickup trucks and Suburbans getting 10-15 MPG.

Well, guess what? Folks now want to buy smaller vehicles with great fuel economy. As other posters have commented, this is Deja Vu of the worst kind: 1973, 1980, and now 2005. GM just can't seem to learn from its mistakes.

I hope nothing bad happens to GM, but I fear it will. Just like what happened in the early 70's, and again in the early 80's, the blame rests right on the shoulders of GM executives. The workers have no input at all, they're supposed to do their job and nothing more.

What "issues" and what "lemons?" If you examine reliability across the board, Toyota on average is light years ahead of GM, Ford, or DC, especially the Prius. They're not perfect, and I expect perfection in everything I buy.

So far the few "issues" I've had Toyota has mostly resolved to my satisfaction. IOW they've done WAY more for me than GMC ever did. GM basically told me to go f*** myself when my Sierra started acting up.

You might find this hard to believe, but the average Prius owner is a highly educated and intelligent owner. I would love to see that survey again of Prius vs college degree.

One thing you won't find are folks on this forum blindly supporting Toyota products. Not like those Chevy owners who blindly support their trucks to such an extent that they'd sooner lie about their problems than face up to them.

We comment on it, warts and all. If there is an "issue" we immediately report, never mind if those in the GM camp might see this as a "lemon."

Speaking of Lemon, you never did comment on my 2000 GMC Sierra. Just based on that truck, which I special ordered and paid a LOT of money for, I'd never trust anything out of Lutz or GM.

You also never commented on that Vortec 5.3 V8 in my truck. Nice design, crappy execution. It was so nice how the truck still smelled new and when I started it up in a parking lot it went KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK. I used to have folks ask if I had a diesel. What did GM say?

"Carbon Deposits ... it's Normal." So was the high oil consumption. A lot of GM owners might have blindly accepted that, not this one. Check out:

http://www.pistonslap.com

I was VERY picky about my 2000 GMC Sierra with Vortec 5.3. I followed the dealer-recommended "break in" to the letter. They only way I found to reduce the start up knock and lower the oil consumption was to run Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40, which is something like $6.50 a quart.

I don't care what you drive, if you're clueless and never open the hood, then don't complain when it quits. I really take exception to your comment as I really babied my GMC and it s*** all over me.

As far as regular servicing, I suppose replacing the front driveshaft would count as "regular" servicing for a GMC? Maybe replacing the 4x4 mode select switch cluster every 2-3 years?

Remembeer that Quality Control was strictly an American invention. As usual, the Big Three pointedly ignored it, so Toyota and other Japanese companies snatched it.:

http://www.deming.org

http://www.deming.org/theman/articles/arti...fluenced01.html

I'm glad that Lutz at GM has finally "discovered" Quality Control, and only about 35 years after Toyota welcomed Dr W.Edward Deming with open arms.

Saw a good documentary about Deming and Japan. Hard to believe, but in Japan Dr. Deming is like a God. He is highly respected and revered. I'm not surprised that Dr. Deming felt so warm towards the Japanese people, considering how the Big Three treated him here.

We are mostly a relaxed bunch here. But when somebody marches in and starts spouting a lot of stuff like you did, we then respond. We REALLY respond when somebody acts as unofficial Goodwill Spokesperson for GM.

Remember, GM didn't invent diesel-powered cars, and didn't invent the diesel motor. They managed to botch the execution so badly that it tarnished the entire industry in North America, so badly that to this day the average car buyer in North America fears buying a diesel powered car.

I would imagine if I went to the GM Trucks forum and commented on how unreliable my Sierra was, I'd be tracked down and shot. Thing is if you lurk at that site, a lot of GM truck owners comment on their problems and then seem to accept The General would never lie to them.

Those folks blindly support their products, and smooth over failures, no matter what. We don't.

That said, I'm looking forward to your reply as to why my Sierra was such a POS. And why GM quietly went back to rear drum brakes on half-ton pickups. Or why my Vortec knocked like a diesel and burned oil.

 

Maybe they did invent cylinder deactiviation, I have no idea. Yet it sure doesn't help them make any cars with good mileage!

But as to diesels, they just about ruined the market. I've owned many diesels from before GM ever heard of them for cars. And a relative of mine got stuck with one of the Cadillac diesels with their defective engines. I'd have to say Ford has bee more of a technology leader in American cars. So what are all these concepts that GM came up with: The electric car was their best one lately and they took it off the market!

As for hybrids having issues what exactly are these? I've got close to 10,000 miles on my Prius and it is so far the only car I ever bought that didn't have issues. I have to admit I never owned or wanted to own a GM car, especially because I don't like any I've tried because of the wishy washy steering feel, but I've had Fords and Dodges (back when they were American cars.) I've also owned Mercedes, Peugeot, Citroen, Volvos, and Saab. So far the Prius is the only trouble free car I ever owned.

 

Tom:

Technically, Eaton Corp invented this technology and GM rushed it to market.

GM and Eaton have a fairly long relationship. For example, the Eaton Drivetrain division produces the "GovLok" or G80 locking rear end used in GM brand pickups.

The Cylinder Deactivation used by some EU Mercedes and by the Chrysler 300C is based on Mercedes/Bosch technology.

Jay

 

Wow, this thread is so filled with well informed and eloquent people that there is no way I'll ever be able to add anything except boy do I love my Prius.

And godiva, you also seem well informed and we already know you are well spoken. But Chevy IS GM. This does not detract one whit from your point, but I thought you should know this. GM is also Pontiac, Dodge, Saturn, SAAB and Cadillac and Buick and GMC. And I think GM cares more about the product identification of each division over the word "GM" itself.

(And Corvette, Oldsmobile, Hummer, and even Opal and Vauxhaul and whatever "Holden" is. And that is only the vehicle divisions.)

http://www.gm.com/

 

Well I am glad someone agrees with me, thanks Prius04. Some of these people need to lighten up don't they? Got one bad car, probably drove it into the ground, and now they hate everything American. You guys do make points about some things, but GM has been the leader. So the packaging has not been perfect, but you can blame those bean counters for rewening a good product. Look at the cars they have at the expos. GM is just showing low profits because they want to get rid of union labor, which is messed up. Look at the corvette, what does japan have to come even close? The best thing sold now is that crummy nsx which old news. If it weren't for all those stupid tree huggers we would still have the Camaro, probably the best car ever. 26 miles a gallon and will stomp anything.

And another thing, the japanese are experts at sweeping problems under the rug. At least with an american car I can count on the government working with the manufacturer to ensure that the car is fixed right. This is a team approach that is not offered to foreign cars.

All I am saying is you haters will see who wins in the end, the company that has been around the longest! Nuff said!

 

A good old-fashion rivalry is beneficial. Contributing to hate is not. Stick to the facts rather than forcing it to be personal.

The facts clearly show that GM is currently struggling financially without any way of recovering in the near-term. Change for them is inevitable.

If you insist on discussing the past instead, why not talk about how GM is now repeating what happened in the 70's?

I suggest discussing goals. What should the Price, Emissions, and MPG criteria be?

 

Very cute. Now go outside and play with the other boys. And when September rolls around don't neglect your English homework.

 

Actually, I disagree with most of what you say. It was the others who had some well thought out and sourced points.

I think GM, like most business in America, is stuck in a "next quarterly report" mindset. Sometimes that vision goes out 3 or 5 years. But even that is rare and that vision NEVER goes out more that 5.

Yet Japanese companies seem not to look at the next quarterly report. They routinely look 20 years into the future. And the loyalty that we all hear about on the part of employees towards the company is there because the company also has the same loyalty right back. This may sometimes hurt during rough times, but when you take the long view, both the employee and employer is better off.

At GM, concern for the environment is part of the marketing department. At Toyota, it seems to be part of the engineering department.

When I read this I got just about the biggest belly laugh I've gotten in weeks. Then I realized you weren't being sarcastic and you actually believe this. I think it's pretty obvious that in America in 2005, business can count on government to help them hide problems, not solve them. And they can count on government to send them money, and weaken regulations. Regulations that make cars safer and go farther on a tank of gas. That is the purpose of government in 2005.


And I think you misunderstand a lot of the criticism of GM that is going on in Priuschat. These people are not "domestic haters". They simply have high expectations of the domestic companies. And those domestic companies screwed up.

To me, a Toyota with 150,000 miles is barely broken in. But a GM vehicle with 150,000 miles is generally a money pit. Now there are exceptions, but this is generally the case. The problem isn't the person that points this out -- a "domestic hater" as you put it -- the problem is the company that makes the vehicles in the first place.

 

What do you mean by "lighten up?" Oh, you mean become a Ditto Head and automatically nod our heads while we agree 100% with you?

Let's use that POS GMC Sierra I went through the trouble of special ordering. In the first week it left a huge puddle of gear oil on the garage floor, the pinion seal was bad. That really inspired my confidence.

I ordered that truck with the Towing Package (Class IV/V receiver, 7 pin wiring harness, electric brake control harness, auxiliary transmission cooler) and 4.10 gearing to tow a 7,300 lb travel trailer. During the entire time I had the truck, I never put more than 6,000km towing on it, and a total of 72,000km (Around 44,000mi) of empty driving on it.

According to all the "experts" and especially the stealer I ordered it from, that truck was WAY over-equipped to pull 7,300 lbs, it was rated to tow 9,000 lbs. Hmmm, maybe that was the problem with my truck, I didn't "work" it hard enough!

While towing, I made sure to have Tow/Haul engaged and the shifter in 3. The truck had great power for towing, great stability, but nasty anemic brakes. So I had to crank the trailer gain almost to Max.

I didn't tow or haul anything or drive over 55 mph during the first 600 miles. Once I had on 600 miles I changed all the gear oil, even using that magic $22/qt GoodWrench synthetic gear oil in the rear axle as recommended. I also dropped the pan and changed the transmission filter too.

From that time on I changed the oil when the Oil Life Monitor told me to. I always ran a synthetic (Mobil 1 0W-30 in winter, Mobil 1 5W-30, Mobil 1 10W-30, and finally Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 in summer).

I always changed the front and rear gear oil, and the AutoTrak transfer case oil, every fall. I serviced the transmission every 2 years or 12,000 miles. Does that sound like "neglect" to you??

As far as the infamous Vortec Knock Knock, you never did answer that one. As recommended by the stealer, I changed the oil and filter at 3,500km, putting in Mobil 1 5W-30. By 5,000km the Knock Knock had started, which really made me feel good to start it up in a crowded parking lot or campground.

"Hey is that a DIESEL?!"

I've heard Vortec motors that sounded much much worse than mine, and some of them burn so much oil you can see the blue fog. The only way I could reduce the noise and oil burning was to run that expensive Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40.

I notice you didn't even comment on the Piston Slap site:

http://www.pistonslap.com

I never drove faster than the speed limit, never raced the motor, rarely floored it (Only to pass somebody) and NEVER power-braked it. So, based on my obsessive-compulsive maintenance and relaxed driving style, did I "drive it into the ground?"

Something tells me I'll never hear from you why my 2000 GMC Sierra had the "piston slap" or why I had so much trouble with the 4x4 mode select button cluster.

You'll just close your eyes and completely ignore that part, perhaps telling me it was somehow my fault.

Oh that's right, they invented the diesel motor. Dr. Rudolph Diesel was just a figment of my imagination, right? They were also the "first" to put diesel motors into passenger cars, never mind that most of them quit.

Mercedes Benz, VW, Toyota, Isuzu, Nissan, and others probably never had a diesel-powered car in their entire history, so I probably made that up too. Certainly not as long ago as I claimed, I was probably making that up too :

http://www.ybiofuels.org/bio_fuels/history_diesel.html

Hmm, the first diesel-powered passenger car was produced by Mercedes Benz, the 260D, in 1936. That's 69 years ago. GM had diesels in passenger cars in 1978-1980? Hmmmm.

Thanks to the bungling of GM, their infamous 5.7/6.2 converted Chevy 350 gasoline motor "diesel," it ruined the diesel market in North America. The diehard supporters still bought nicely equipped and reliable Mercedes diesel cars, and the VW Rabbit diesel, but the reputation was ruined otherwise.

Oh God you sound just like GM management in the early 80's! Hire the Union Busters, back to the Sweat Shops!

:roll:

When the combination of crap quality, high fuel prices, and readily available alternatives (Toyota, Datsun, Isuzu, VW, Mercedes, etc) caught up to GM, they tried many variations of the "blame game:"

1. The "Japs" are "dumping" their products below cost. Ummm, no. They didn't. Matter of fact folks will pay a premium for a Toyota.

2. The American buyer isn't "patriotic" enough. A lot of folks balanced what it meant to be a "patriot" and having a reliable, economical small car. And since most Toyota cars are assembled in the good 'ole USA, it's a moot point anyway.

3. The UAW employees are to blame for the crap quality, heavy losses, dumb products, and bad investment decisions.

HA! Since when has a production line worker been empowered to make strategic multi-million and multi-billion dollar business decisions? UAW workers are like any other line worker, they're supposed to shut up and work.

Period. Try it sometime, if you have a job that is.

I have a B.Sc. in Computer Science (Embedded Systems) and a B.Sc. in Economics (Production and Operations Management). You'll have to trust me on this, but every problem that GM, Ford, and DC is now faced with is strictly 100% the fault of MANAGEMENT.

IOW the Ivory Tower Syndrome has caught up to them. Of course, you haven't mentioned anything at all about the lavish perks, salaries, and stock options/cash options those executives enjoy.

It may be interesting for you to research that Japanese auto workers are also unionized. For that matter, the North American auto plants run by Asian makers (Toyota, Honda, even soon Hyundai) are UAW plants. I don't hear UAW workers complaining too much about Toyota or Honda, nor does Toyota try to blame any problems on the non-empowered hired help.

Hey, maybe GM should blame the Custodial Dept staff for all their problems? Those darn mopper and floor polisher people are sucking GM dry.

The rest of the world could care less about how fast a car goes from 0-60, or how much it can burn rubber. It's odd how in North America with speed limits set so low a Yugo can keep up, we have this fascination with speed.

"Tree Huggers" man that's funny. In Utah I was a Right Wing Gun Toting nut, in Canada I can only be a Right Wing nut. Yet I picked a Prius, because a true Conservative looks at the Long Term for every financial decision.

I don't have to worry about my image, because I have a very high degree of introverted self-confidence and I don't have to compensate for a tiny, unreliable, inferior reproductive organ.

I imagine once we are stuck paying the "true" price of a gallon of gas, we'll all be forced to become "tree huggers." Like how Cheney did his quiet 180 on his opinion of fuel efficiency: once the Hawks start driving a Prius you know the rest of us peons are in for a bumpy ride with gas prices.

GM is pulling the plug on all it's small-volume losers, the Camaro being one. The lowest I ever got out of my Prius was 28 MPG, that was at -40 in stop n inch city traffic.

Many EU cars will handily get 2-3x the fuel economy and are also much more practical. At least my Prius has 4 doors.

A car with the same interior room as a Camaro would be the VW Lupo 3L. It gets 3x the highway MPG and around 6-10 times the city MPG.

You probably can't burn rubber on command with a Lupo, but if you tried that sort of stunt in front of the Bayern Polizei, they would nail you good. Remember not to get too smart with them, most carry HK MP5 sub machine guns.

As far as "stomp" other cars, have you read the NHTSA and the IIHS studies on the statistics of young male drivers, high performance cars, and fatalities?

The Camaro has one of the highest loss rates out there. It really irks me that I've never had an at-fault accident (Been rear-ended twice at a red light) or a speeding ticket, but my insurance keeps going up to pay for idiots. Camaro? Good riddance.

Oh, like how Ford "worked" with NHTSA to ensure the "safety" of the Pinto? They even have the same problem with the current Ford Crown Vic Interceptor.

Police officers who are rear-ended by dumb-nice person punks who are stoned/drunk and driving their Camaro too fast are causing the cruisers to burst into flames and incinerate the police officers.

http://www.crownvictoriasafetyalert.com

If I recall, Ford very quietly sweeped the Pinto problems under the rug until class action lawsuits forced them to reveal the problem. Ford appealed twice and lost.

In particular, considering the Punitive damages, the court found Ford had a "callous disregard for safety." See Grimshaw v Ford Motor Company (1981). Ford considered people burned alive as a "benefit" to them, and once that was made public, the uproar started.

How about the millions of Chevy and GM pickup trucks with those side-saddle fuel tanks? They're fine trucks otherwise, just never get t-boned in an intersection or it will burst into flames.

http://www.frasierlaw.com/new_certiorari/u...tims_fall00.asp

It's too bad that you're too young to have extensively travelled to other countries, or to understand legal issues in foreign countries.

One example is the European Union recognizing that the most fatal accident is an "offset" crash: one car wanders over the center line and hits another car, both cars only making contact with a portion of the front end.

In North America, at least until very recently, the emphasis was on a straight frontal impact. It takes a lot more engineering and research to develop a car that will safely handle the offset or "real world" crash.

The EU requires this, so it's no surprise that most German and Asian models do very well in this sort of crash. The few American models sold in the EU and tested to the same requirements do very poorly. Don't take my word for it, look it up yourself:

http://www.euroncap.com

http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_rat...p?id1=7&id2=138

http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_rat...hp?id1=5&id2=56

Nuff said indeed. Old isn't necessarily better. Here in Canada no better example was The Hudson's Bay Co, a very old company that has faded away.

The problem with most old companies is that they become fat and happy and live in the past. They can't even conceive of new ideas and especially of new challenges.

At this point I really wonder if I should keep bothering with my replies, as you obviously haven't answered any of the points I have raised. I imagine if I met with you in person and verbalized the points, you would poke your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalalalalalalala" so you couldn't hear me.

I don't think anybody on this forum actually *hates* GM or any other entity, we're not wired up that way. And most of us don't appear to have any "issues" to deal with.

Even given the absolute POS 2000 GMC Sierra I briefly had, I don't actually *hate* General Motors. I do have contempt for their empty promises and crappy products, and will never again buy another one.

Say what you want about the Toyota's or Honda's I've driven over 24 years, they have never let me down.

 

Leader in loosing money and market share?

Anyway, I believe US can catch up in hybrid technology and beat the current offerings, although I can not think of a hybrid system more simpler than HSD. Maybe they can tightly intergrade linear electric motors (see panasonic shavers) in the gasoline ICE. This design will eliminate the need for PSD.

Just look at Jet engine history. We were so behind German and British. Now look where we are. It will take a man like Kelly Johnson in automotive industry to do it.

Dennis

 

That is just, like, soooo unfair, dude! GM has been in the forefront of innovation since its founding. They gave us Alfred Sloan (or was it Alfred Sloan who gave us GM?), who I believe first uttered the little ditty about GM not being in the business of making cars, but in the business of making money. This philosophy (which gets a school of business named for you, BTW) gives us the strategy of planned obsolesence, which worked great as long as the rest of the formerly industrialized world lay in ruins after the Second World War. The trouble with GM (and Ford and Chrysler) is that they cannot get past planned obsolesence--even after the rest of the world has been in the ball game for a good 30-40 years. They still build cars to break (give 'em a great deal in the showroom--we'll make our money in the service dept!). Rather than focusing on engineering greatness, they focus on varying the body shapes (grafting "SUV" forms atop larger and larger truck frames) and on advertising. Toyota and Honda, meanwhile, follow the Deming way and consistently turn out great cars.

BTW, I can hardly believe you guys are spending so much time on this crank. When I read his first post I thought it had 15-year-old troll written all over it.

 

Well, you know me, detail-oriented.

Exactly my point.

The Big Three always whine they can't produce a fuel efficient, practical small car, yet their wholly-owned subsidiaries in the rest of the world do exactly that: produce fuel efficient, practical small cars.

DC has numerous fuel efficient small cars and utility vehicles in the EU, and most of their models sold have a turbodiesel of some sort. Personally I think the best thing that happened to Dodge here in North America was to get rid of that cursed full size van (Remember the fuel fill directly above the exhaust pipe?) and replace it with the Mercedes Benz Sprinter, which has a 5 cylinder turbodiesel. Easily twice the fuel economy.

Ford also offers numerous fuel efficient small cars and utility vehicles in the EU, again many with proven turbodiesels. The Focus over there is usually sold with a diesel, not the so-so Zetec offered here.

GM, where can I start with GM? Yeah, I know they're clueless, maybe they'll be like Dodge and offer a fire breathing V8 passenger car that gets 10 MPG.

Here's a neat little car from Opel, the Agila Linea Fresca. The motor choices include a 1.0 litre petrol up to a 1.3 litre turbodiesel. Just right for city driving:

http://www.opel.ch/modelspeciaux/index.cfm...1,01,06&lang=de

http://www.opel.ch/img/modelspeciaux/pdf224_DE.pdf

The 1.3 is rated "city" at 5.6 litres per 100km, "urban" at 3.7 litres per 100km.

If you want a bit more oomph, the Open Corsa Linea Fresca can be ordered with a 1.7 litre turbodiesel:

http://www.opel.ch/modelspeciaux/index.cfm...1,08,07&lang=de

http://www.opel.ch/img/modelspeciaux/pdf222_de.pdf

Of course, the Corsa is also a lot more money. The 5 door 1.7 litre turbodiesel costs 22,000 Swiss Franks, about $17,000 USD. The 1.7 diesel is rated at 7 litres per 100 km "city" and 4.7 litres per 100km "urban." About the same as the Prius in the EU.

So when Lutz and others at GM claim they simply can't produce a fuel efficient midrange car, I just have to belly laugh until my head hurts. Of course, Lutz and others at GM count on the fact that most of the GM lovers are as uninformed as our young poster.

In the meantime, I think Toyota can count on the North American market, especially the United States, to max out their Prius production. I've often wondered why Toyota markets the Prius in the EU, when there is stiff competition from fuel efficient small cars.

Here, if the best that GM can offer is the Korean made Aveo from the bankrupt Daewoo, the Prius will have no real competition.

Don't forget though: GM "invented" diesel motors and "invented" passenger car diesel motors. I still chuckle over that one.

Jay