Dangerous on ice and snow

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nicos @ Feb 12 2007, 10:49 AM) [snapback]388845[/snapback]</div>

... or we can just blame the driver ...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(texvegas @ Feb 11 2007, 05:41 PM) [snapback]388565[/snapback]</div>

Same here. I am selling my 2005 and getting regular AWD sedan. It may be OK in Norway, but they do plow roads there (I have been to Norway many times). In US in places where snow is infrequent or melts down quickly in lowlands (but can stay for weeks at hilltops!) municipal services suck big time. There was no garbage pick up for four weeks where I live and our place cannot be called remote at any rate.

Getting stuck at home for two weeks does not work for me. I must have reliable transportation in snowy and icy conditions. And no, I am not attracted to Lexus 400h. And I am experiencing dashboard (and other plastic parts) rattle as well - not a sign of a good quality car after just two years.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(texvegas @ Feb 11 2007, 05:41 PM) [snapback]388565[/snapback]</div>

I'm a bit shocked by this item. My previous car was a 4 wheel drive Subaru and I've had better control in this car on the highway in snow, ice and slush than I ever did in that Subaru. In fact, I avoided a car accident back in early 2005 that I never would have avoided in any car I had owned before. That was doubtless due to the VSC and not the Prius per se, but the 4 wheeler could not have done what this car did.

Yes, I've got to admit that I've been on some hills where I was going VERY slow and due to the traction control I started to lose momentum, but that was fixed 10 minutes later when I attacked that same hill with more momentum going into it.

I suppose my VW back in 72 might have been better, but I might be having memory problems on that one.

As for the VSC, I will never not get it again, and I will not let my daughters buy cars without it in the future, even if I need to pay for it myself.

I'm up to 38K and I still love this car. More than my '85 BMW 325i.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(prius04 @ Feb 12 2007, 08:02 PM) [snapback]389264[/snapback]</div>

I think what you're saying is stability control is definitely worth the price. I agree with this as a driver can't possible brake individual wheels like a stability control system can to maintain control.

I wouldn't go as far to say that a Prius with VSC is better than a Subaru with AWD. I use to own a 2004 Subaru Forester XT mounted with Nokian Hakka RSI snow tires. It was head and shoulders better than my 2004 Prius (Yes, it has VSC) with Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50 snow tires. My Forester had a 5-speed transmission which uses a 50/50 power split between the front and rear. Perhaps you had an automatic Subaru? The split is 90/10 most of the time on the automatics and they drive like a front-wheel car. I don't understand why Subaru is so reluctant to include stability control on their model lineup. As far as I know, the decked out Outback VDC (i think it's now called R) is the only model that has stability control and they cost a small fortune!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(texvegas @ Feb 11 2007, 05:41 PM) [snapback]388565[/snapback]</div>

I am sorry to say that I've started feeling the same way. Faulty ABS, MFD, front axles, red triangle.. not to mention the time spent with the various recalls. I still like the car, but I'm beginning to wonder if a regular car wouldn't be much simpler and inexpensive to operate in the long run. Seems to me that all the gas savings can easily go in one repair of a sophisticated component. <_<

I have also experienced the stall caused by traction loss. Not a good feeling, especially with cars coming your way.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(texvegas @ Feb 13 2007, 05:41 PM) [snapback]389689[/snapback]</div>

Hi Texvegas,

How much show do you have over there in Syracuse ?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(automatic1stdown @ Feb 13 2007, 12:59 AM) [snapback]389340[/snapback]</div>

Almost a month ago I test drove a 2007 Subaru Outback 3.0 R "Premier" package. At least in Canada, the only way to get a Subaru Outback with Vehicle Dynamics Control and Traction Control System is to get a H-6 Outback, then tack on the Premier Package. Price of such a thing here in Canada: $46,000

I spent a lot of time speaking with the sales guy there, and he actually seemed to know what he was talking about. Had videos to show me, technical brochures, etc. Apparently, at least as far as the Outback is concerned, and depending on whether H-4 stick or auto or auto H-6, the center differential is either viscous or electronically locked.

On the base Outback the rear axle is "open" so in theory if one side is on ice and the other side is on dry pavement, you're spinning. Step up a bit and the rear axle is also viscous-coupled.

But again, if you desire the stability control, the only possible way to get it is with the top-of-the-line Outback 3.0 R Premier Package: you have to take leather, nav, moonroof, power seats, etc. The traction control - however - is a REAL one. It was quite easy to find an intersection so one side of the car was on glare ice, and the other side on dry pavement. I could feel the brakes briefly pulse the spinning wheel and away we went.

On "all season" tires.

The option "gotcha" isn't limited to Subaru. I was also looking at a Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Apparently - at least in Canada - both the Base and Limited offer VDIC. But if I wanted side and head curtain airbags, and you can bet I'd want that, I'd have to spring for the top-of-the-line Limited.

Here, the Base Highlander Hybrid is $44,850. The Limited is $53,670.

I'm still debating which one to get as a second vehicle. Both have similar ground clearance. I thought the Outback had a better, more compliant, ride over Winnipeg potholes and washboardy roads. Hint: a great way to test how compliant a suspension is in Winnipeg is to take a little drive down Dugald. The stretch from Plessis to Lagimodiere - especially the westbound lane before the overpass - is punishing, it's badly frost heaved. I've seen transport trucks bouncing so badly the hood ties pop out.

I know most folks would kill to have my "dilemma" of which second vehicle to pick. Since neither one has any incentives I'm going to wait for awhile.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Feb 13 2007, 09:27 PM) [snapback]389881[/snapback]</div>

Correct, on the base model the only torque transfer is from front to rear. Even that isn't technically correct, from the way the salesguy and his technical brochures detailed it, the torque split is 50/50. That would be like a conventional 4wd truck or suv. As far as side-to-side front torque transfer, I really don't know, but I would guess "no" on all models but the 3.0 R Premier.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Feb 13 2007, 09:27 PM) [snapback]389881[/snapback]</div>

The "locking" appears to be torque bias acting on clutch plates. Typically the clutch plates are lightly biased - or "preloaded" - with springs that press the plates. These are preload springs. The fluid itself usually has a friction modifier so the clutch plates smoothly engage, without "chatter" or slipping.

There really isn't a transfer of power from one side to the other, it's just that the wheel sitting on dry pavement will get a portion of the torque the spinning wheel is getting. Say 40%. That's usually enough to get you going.

I installed a "true" locking rear end in my 1984 Ford F-150 at the hobby farm. Both rear wheels receive equal torque, like they would if I had replaced the differential case with a spool. However if I make a turn there is an overrun mechanism, and it makes a clicking noise during the turn.

As far as website, I'd guess subaru.ca or subaru.com. The powertrax.com site is good to help understand how their product works.

 

Winter driving here in Ct has been almost nonexistent this winter.The only real tryout with my prius and its x-ice snowtires was that 3" sleetstorm we had earlier in the week.Car preformed great!I have to say this is the best car i have ever had for winter driving.

 

I did fine in the last foot of snow we had and I had to drive in blizzard conditions, granted its not a 4 wheel drive and the VSC kicked in several times and I hadn't even gottent the better tires because its been an odd winter in NH. I think it compared with my passat, its a little lighter, but to each his own.

 

Hello folks -- I'm pretty new here but I've been driving and wrenching on cars since 1969 ( I also have a new keyboard with a mind of its own, so forgive any typos).

I just drove a 2001 Prius home through a fairly significant Wiscconsin snowfall at midnight, after the snowplowers had gone to bed. I was passing everything on the road thanks to the Nokian Hakkapeliitta RSI tires on the car. It's the tires, baby!!! Cheeck this out:
http://www.nokiantires.com/en/winter_passenger.aspx

A set of tires on steel wheels cost me $600+ but they're worth the scratch, assuming they're gonna see us through at least three seasons.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(texvegas @ Feb 11 2007, 04:41 PM) [snapback]388565[/snapback]</div>

I purchased Hydroedge tires for my 2002 Civic Sedan. They were the worst all season tires that I have ever driven in the winter. I currently use Arctic Alpins on my civic with excellent results. A dedicated winter tire is a world of difference. Any tire with the severe snow rating symbol should be substantially better than a all season.

The only all season that really works well in winter for cars that I know of is the Nokian WR series.

Traction control doesn't create traction, only a better tire can do that, all traction control does is attempt to manage it... sometimes successfully.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LazyBear @ Feb 12 2007, 07:23 PM) [snapback]389234[/snapback]</div>

The roads weren't plowed in that picture of Norway. It wasn't heavy snow, but still the roads were white.
I've deliberately pushed the limits of my car on some steep roads around here with 3"-6" of snow on the roads, and it behaved as well as any FWD car. It's not going to operate like a big honking 4WD SUV (or an AWD Subaru, which I owned and loved, except for the 20-22 mpg part). But it's a FWD vehicle, and you need to treat it like one, and it will get you thru 99.8% of winter driving conditions.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(texvegas @ Feb 11 2007, 04:41 PM) [snapback]388565[/snapback]</div>

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?ti...Model=HydroEdge

So you replaced one set of all seasons with another set of ALL SEASONS. No offense but you'd think someone in Syracuse would know to get SNOW tires in the winter.

 

I second this assessment. I just got back from snowshoeing with my dogs. I drove ~15 miles of forest service road (read: unpaved, with packed snow, ice, and some stretches with 3-6" of standing snow). It seems that many, many people have prii that become virtually inoperable in snowy/icy conditions. This has not been my experience at all, and I am still running the original goodyears. I certainly wouldn't chock this up to my "incredible" driving skills; so I have to think there is more than one software version for the TC out there. My traction control works like that of any other similarly equipped FWD car that I have driven, and the VSC has operated flawlessly as well. Seriously, I feel for those that have had such difficulty with their cars, but today the only other vehicles that were in the same vicinity as mine were snowmachines and the pickups that hauled them there.

The only winter issue I have faced thus far is snow packing up into the wheelwells until the fenders are about to pop off. If I don't knock it out of there after I park the car, it will freeze in place. This ice has physically stopped the wheels from turning right and left through the full range of motion. There is typically a near zero tolerance gap between the tires and the ice.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ewhanley @ Feb 24 2007, 05:22 PM) [snapback]396000[/snapback]</div>

It's not quite gotten that bad for me, but I've definitely heard the tires scraping the snow under the fender wells when I've turned.

OTOH, the first time I've experienced slipping of any significance (other than the time I was caught off guard on wet ice on a downhill) was this morning when I turned out of a parking lot that was on a fair incline (certainly over 5 degrees, but I'm not sure it was 10 degrees. I'll have to get a level to check). The tires slipped repeatedly, but there was no trouble keeping the car going up the hill. I even tried flooring a little (not a lot), and although it slipped, it also grabbed enough to make it up the hill without any real difficulty. This was on ice that wasn't too far below the melting point. That's of course much worse than on the colder surfaces we've had earlier this winter.

I see absolutely no problems with the way the Prius handles icy conditions. At least, if you're aware that it's icy.

Dave M.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dmckinstry @ Feb 24 2007, 10:34 PM) [snapback]396057[/snapback]</div>

This car has caused me absolutely no problems with the snow and we just had about 12 inches this weekend. I couldn't be happier with vehicle. I had a Mitsubishi Expo AWD before this, and, this vehicle is just as good or better.