Cutting the Cost: GM may take a hit on the price of hybrid systems to sell more units

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jul 11 2007, 10:14 PM) [snapback]477263[/snapback]</div>

John -- Fact is, Toyota set a goal of 50K units the first year. They barely sold 38K. That's a pretty large margin to miss a sales goal by. Spin it all you want, those were their goals, and they didn't make them.

 

It seems to me that there is probably about 100 things they could do to a truck to improce FE before making it a hybrid.
a short list
better stock spark plugs and wires
reduce the weight
lower vehicle closer to the ground and have an adjustable suspension that can raise it for hauling loads and towing like a semi
make the more efficient 6 speed automatic standard in all vehicles

just to name a few

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 11 2007, 09:35 PM) [snapback]477282[/snapback]</div>

Refusing to look back beyond the year of production itself won't change the facts.

The year *BEFORE* then, those nasty misconceptions about hybrid speed & power were crippling the rollout efforts. Sadly, there were quite a number of people intentionally misleading. Attempts to convince those new to the technology that a "full" hybrid could never be fast or large were a common problem.

Those goals were achieved, an undeniable success... well proven by the rollout of even faster & larger "full" hybrids later.

The fact that an additional goal of selling them at a profit wasn't met, but the goal to getting 50,000 of them in the hands of consumers still was.

That's 3 out of 4.

 

They could sell a good number at $5000 if there was a tax credit. More then that and it will be hard to sell. GM does have room to sell the hybrid at a 'loss' because GM makes up to $10,000 or more profit on large SUV's. They will not loose money on a large SUV even if they took a $5000 hit on the hybrid option.

GM's dual mode system is more complex then I would like. The Prius system while advanced is actually wonderfully simple mechanically. Most of the complexity is in the software and the controller which once perfected it does not add much chance of failure. The GM system has alot of parts to fail, two clutches for example. I almost like the BAS system more for GM because I don't fear it breaking as much and it could be cheaply added to so many vehicles. For the consumer it has a quick payback with any subsidy.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 11 2007, 09:35 PM) [snapback]477282[/snapback]</div>

So what? Look at them now.

It's better to set an ambitious goal and not meet it than to set a safe goal and then coast once it is reached.

In fact, a goal should never be reached. As you approach it, it should be reset farther away.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 11 2007, 10:35 PM) [snapback]477282[/snapback]</div>

You will have to show me that reference. I've been selling them since they debuted and I never hear that the HH was intended to sell 1/3 of the annual volume?

I'll leave your statement in abeyance because I might have missed something but I'm waiting for some facts in support of it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 11 2007, 07:35 PM) [snapback]477282[/snapback]</div>

Can you please supply referenes to this. Not sure why Toyota would set a sales goal of nearly 45% (OK, 50k out of 130K or so) of a model to be hybrid.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 11 2007, 10:35 PM) [snapback]477282[/snapback]</div>

Multiple misunderstandings due to lack of in depth reading...Here is the actual link to which you referred.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0...utos-125088.htm

From the Detroit News:

Now here are the actual results for 2005 from Toyota's website:
http://www.pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/V...YT2006010484765

The key figures are:
20674 units - RX400h
17989 units - HH
38663 units - Total

This was just the US, it doesn't include CA or AU or EU.

Facts are your friends. It's OK to be accurate. They hit their goal, bet on it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 11 2007, 01:29 PM) [snapback]477076[/snapback]</div>

So... the idea is to sell at a loss and make it up on volume? Ah. Yup, I keep seeing GM "learning" while Toyota eats their lunch.

As usual... I wonder why you ever bought a Toyota. Punushment for something you did in a past life?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 11 2007, 01:25 PM) [snapback]476930[/snapback]</div>

Andy Frank (one of several who truly advanced the developement of the PHEV concept) and his research students build suburban type SUV plug in's, with enough EV range to work a 500% mileage increase for the average commuter. So I'm always filled with angst when I hear about 12% - 15% - 20% mpg improvements. When Toyota launched the Prius, it was an expensive and risky gamble, that ultimately paid off. So with battery / electric assist, we know we're on to something. Next logical sep would be PEHV's. Where are the financial risk takers now? ... especially if fossil fuel imports keep becoming increasinly more costly.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jul 12 2007, 03:20 AM) [snapback]477385[/snapback]</div>

Nah, my guess is he just likes to take the opposite view, even when/if he doesn't believe it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DeadPhish @ Jul 12 2007, 01:39 AM) [snapback]477360[/snapback]</div>

Well, one of the articles I was referring to was here:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/toy...3353208622.html

Where a VP from Toyota JP said that the HiHy has not sold well in Japan, and Toyota needed to rethink their hybrid strategy.

As for the other article, it's around here somewhere, I posted it a few years back. Toyota had a goal of 50K in NA... and sold 38 in NA.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 12 2007, 01:46 PM) [snapback]477697[/snapback]</div>

So what if they only sold 38K as opposed to 50K their first year of the new model? Recently Toyota sold 17,756 hybrids - in a month! (June). Seems like they are taking a long-range view and it is paying off big time for them now :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 12 2007, 03:46 PM) [snapback]477697[/snapback]</div>

Not sure I'm following; what does a comment about "rethinking hybrid strategy in the US" from a Toyota VP for the JDM, have to do with hybrid sales in America? I'd suggest that our market isn't even part of this guy's bailiwick.

As far as goals go, it's often prudent to redefine them in light of additional information. No one even knew *who* an American hybrid buyer even was, a few short years ago. This isn't like selling a new model of a existing nameplate to repeat buyers; I think that's an important fact to remember.

I'm not smelling failure anywhere near Toyota's hybrid program, no matter how it's spun. Selling hybrids to Americans is, indeed, quite untried; I'd suggest that there is precious little previous data to base any firm "predictions."

Toyota has successfully created a brand name, using only a slightly odd looking (in a good way!) and totally unique (to this market) automobile. I'll bet that just about everyone knows what a Prius is; it's even a Monopoly piece for goodness sake!

Meanwhile, Ford still is struggling with renaming the Five Hundred. I'm a bit slow today; tell me again, where's the problem?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 12 2007, 04:46 PM) [snapback]477697[/snapback]</div>

I found the article for you, posted above. It was 52,000 units to be exported from Japan in 2005, including US, CA, AU and EU. The entire US allocation was sold at 38K+.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 12 2007, 01:46 PM) [snapback]477697[/snapback]</div>

Seems like you are wrong again. Harrier and Kluger does not sound like Highlander to me. As well as the fact that it was for all exported hybrid SUVs from Japan. Very different picture than what you wanted to portray.

I have noticed a number of your posts where you keep on ragging on Toyota with incorrect information here. Like the Aura Hybrid that will have similar MPG than the Camry hybrid.
http://priuschat.com/index.php?s=&show...st&p=300290

Yet Aura gives 24 city, 32 highway and 27 combined
Camry 33 city, 34 highway and 34 combined.

Both on new EPA scale. See Fueleconomy.gov

Further claiming Vue hybrid gets better milage than Highlander hybrid
yet Vue = 23, 29, 26 vs HiHy 28, 25, 26 thus even for a much more powerful vehicle (HiHy), much less pollution (again check above mentioned site) and larger (edmunds). Only with a price differnce of 10K not 13K as you mentioned. Or were you trying the normal GM trick of comparing a FWD GM to AWD Toyota.

Also when you say the Malibu hybrid gets 40 highway and 29 city, please provide the tested numbers ( I haven't seen any).
http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=2...mp;#entry302252


So in short, why not just get Aura and move on? And while you are at it, quit trying to quote incorrect numbers like all you GM fanboys seem to do. Toyota has their shortcomings, but comapred to GM

I wish GM would spend the same effort and resource in their engineering department as they do in their misinformation department. If they did, they would be in much better shape. I see Ford turning around long before GM, as they are hitting the nail on the head with a number of products in the last few years.

 

There is a big change coming. A small increase in gas prices (yes-small in hindsight 5 years from now) causes a big surge in Prius sales. Apparently, GM thinks that this means everyone wants hybrids when gas prices go up, and that absolute MPG is of lesser importance. I did not buy the Prius because it was a hybrid. I bought it because of 52 mpg.

What is actually impressive is the following:
1) Toyota, at the urging of Eiji Toyoda, starts work on a high mileage car during the huge SUV boom. Not as an R&D project, but as a 1000 per month production project. This was not some "marketing" result, but the result of someone very high up thinking realistically.
2) A bunch of independent groups are doing a lot to develop an PHEV to make up for the void of no car manufacturer (including Toyota) providing anything. They know that the demand is there, just not the vehicles. They have demonstrated the concept by doing it. They lead, others follow.
3) A fully electric car startup, Tesla, has sold everything they have available before it is built....and is making a big manufacturing plant. Small number of very smart innovators.

A very small number of individuals is making a very big difference. GM does not appear to be making a difference.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 11 2007, 03:29 PM) [snapback]477076[/snapback]</div>

'disastrous' and Toyota's blunder.?

Toyota announced that the HH accounted for 30% of all Highlander sale.
When Toyota can sell 30% worth of HH among all Highlander sold, how can this
number be _disastrous_ ?