Crisis in Mid-East Escalates...

Just got home and had a few minutes to catch up on all the chat.

I would just like to say for the record how surprised I am to find so many anti-Semites on one small internet BB.

Good night and God bless Israel and the United States (as some one said - soon to be our 51st State) - at least you can count on those that live there to know the difference between freedom and fear societies - between right and wrong - between an open press and a State controlled press - about the value of life - about free elections - and tolerance.

Maybe a few of you guys should go over there for a month or two and observe.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 16 2006, 07:57 PM) [snapback]287380[/snapback]</div>

Anti-Semite and anti-Israel are not quite synonymous.

There are a few posters here who are anti-Israel, but only one who is a certifiable anti-Semite.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 16 2006, 08:14 PM) [snapback]287383[/snapback]</div>

Early on in my Navy career a wise old Master Chief told me, “if you crap in you bed, you are the one who has to live with the consequences.â€

I don't remember if it was something I did, didn't do, or was about to do which had my superiors mad at me, but the Master Chief's words of wisdom have stuck with me ever since.

It is time for the Palestinians to stop crapping in their bed.

If you got together a group of Palestinians, I'd bet that they couldn't come to a consensus on whether the problem is something they did, didn't do, or were about to do.

I had no chance of winning my argument with my Navy superiors, and am glad I didn't try. The Palestinians have no chance of winning their argument via armed conflict, and bettering their lives in the process.

Disarming and talk are their only hope.
If they don't understand that after all these years of lying in their crappy beds, maybe it is hopeless.
I hope not.

"You can't talk to a man with a shotgun in his hand.â€
- Carole King
Smackwater Jack

 

I should start by saying that I don't have a good solution to the problem, however i am continually amazed at how little has changed over 50 odd years.

I think one of the central issues is leadership (or the lack of it) and the fact that the leaders don;t have any new answers. If you look at the business world in the west and the east - there aren't too many CEOs that can say - we have been loosing money, market share and employees in a steady steam for the last 50 years but I think that by doing the same thing something is going to change.

For there to be any solution the palestinians need to try something new - Abbas and the PA started on that road a few years ago - but they couldn't break the old habit of saying one thing in English and another thing in Arabic. Socially, the arab worlds in ability to admit errors or that they may be on the wrong track is part of the issue.

When most people have a problem, they generally accept that they have a problem and then try and fix it - the palestinians have a problem (i don;t think anyone is challenging that) but they don't seem to be taking any responsibility for the solution. That being said - the rest of the arab world finds the palestinian problem to be quite a convenient issue. There are many examples where Jordan and Egpyt have massacred hundreds of Palestinians to keep them under control.

So the palestians are in a tough spot - they have israel on one side - and their pride won't let them resolve that issue and they have a bunch of arab leaders who say "you keep fighting israel but don;t think of emigrating here, because you won;t be able to own land, receive benefits etc".

So my challenge is to the arab world - the future of the palestinians are in your hands.......

Anyway - there are some interesting articles in www.arabnews.com and www.jpost.com - remeber that there are always two sides to the coin....

LaniLobes

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 16 2006, 08:37 PM) [snapback]287393[/snapback]</div>

He doesn't need to. If the shoe fits...in your case...stuff it in your mouth.

I have known many people like you...who just like to push others to see what they have and when they will crack.

How dare you equate what the Nazi's did with ONLY the Jews. They killed over 5 million other people too! Unless you are blue eyed and blonde, you would have surely been on their list too! In fact, even if you fit their profile, your mouth would have done you in!

The fact that you are not arguing for any other downtrodden peoples, of which their are millions in countries all over the world, and choose to focus only on Israel, shows your true colors.

The Lebanese and Palestinians have more then enough time to deal with these radicals...so Israel...as you put it, has the "nuts" to take charge.

Hey guys, don't you see what he is doing here? For all we know, Mystery Squid is sitting under house arrest somewhere and has to start this controversy because they don't allow TV in the funny farm!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 16 2006, 06:56 PM) [snapback]287378[/snapback]</div>

As your hero said, bring it on! B)

Only an ignoramus such as you would drag the fact that I said I took anti-depressant medication into your Middle East thread.

Dare you to put up another "vote Squid off the board" thread, fool.

Where are all your stooges (including, God help us, a cop!) tonight?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jul 16 2006, 11:29 PM) [snapback]287390[/snapback]</div>

Thank you for stating the obvious. I am sure you will note that there are those who hide their anti-Semitism behind an anti-Israel facade.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 16 2006, 11:14 PM) [snapback]287383[/snapback]</div>

I like to think that that's because reasonable people would be willing to give up their lives for their cause, but not take the lives of innocents.

If my next door neighbor was harboring terrorists (people who had killed KIDS in the name of their cause) and they bulldozed my house too, I'd be pissed. Very. I *might* take up arms against the guy running the bulldozer over my house. I don't know if my next door neighbor would survive ever seeing me again. There's lots of things I might do - some that conflict with my 'sheltered life' ethics. I would never, ever consider killing kids in retaliation. That's what terrorists do. Do you really think that's reasonable?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jul 17 2006, 09:03 AM) [snapback]287498[/snapback]</div>

I agree with you wholeheartedly. What level of anti-Semitism is tolerated here?

Do not worry about your kids being drafted - won't happen.

Do not worry about polarizing the Middle East. As I am sure you have noticed the Sunni Arab countries (Saudi, Egypt, Jordan) have given Israel the "green light" to take care of this Shia issue- kind of interesting that it took this long for them to realize the jeopardy they are in from within. Thankfully Iran has no nuclear capability at this point - although supplying Hezbollah with silkworm and medium range ground to ground missiles is evidence enough for most that they have their hands in this one up to their shoulders - like how they opened a two front war with Israel too. Watch Syria stay real low.

 

Squid is NOT being anti-Semitic. He's controversial, and that is Squid. He never called any of you anything, so he deserves the same kind of dignity. Also, by incorrectly referring to squid as an anti-semite, you essentially remove yourself from the debate and don't respond to his arguments... and that being said he made a very strong argument about a foreign force invading America. Same goes for calling his arguments baloney... that is quite the opposite of what I would call a convincing argument.

That being said, do not DARE call me an anti-semite, because that nothing but a blatant lie and an excuse to avoid the debate.

PLEASE NOTE THAT FROM MY READINGS THE PALESTINIANS ARE ALSO SEMITES. REFERRING TO PALESTINIANS, BY A FEW OF YOUR VERY OWN ARGUMENT...MEANS THAT YOU ARE MAKING AN ANTI SEMITIC REMARK.

How would you feel if another country's army was in our country?

IsrAmeriPrius... I don't have relatives in Palestine or Lebanon, but I have friends' whose relatives and home cities and villages are being bombed... and please note that I have nothing but utter respect for you... but for the sake of the debate my position will probably be antithetical towards yours. If it means that ill will grows between us, then I will shut up immediately and delete all my posts in this thread... but I do hope that you realize I have relations at stake too... not as harmful or deep as yours, but they are still there.

That being said, everyone on here is capable of reasoned debate... let's hope that is how it pans outs.

Squid brought up a good point... I suckered in and let go of the pro palestinian side of the debate... I had pansied out... now it will take more debate before I come to a final conclusion on this debate. I do not accept that Palestinians just smile and accept their fate, and turn the other cheek... yet let Israel get away with anything it has done against innocent Palestinians over the past 58 some years (of course, those responsible for innocent Israeli deaths must get justice). IE there should be equal justice.

In a previous post, I brought up bulldozed homes... as did squid. Now... the responses to that were to that point thought I was talking about Israeli missiles hitting their homes... what I was referring to was this:

Speaking of Lebanon:

How can you expect Lebanon to ally with Israel after all they have done to the ravaged country?! And speaking of which... how on Earth can it be expected of citizens to retrieve the soldiers when it is the militias that have the guns?!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Jul 17 2006, 03:41 PM) [snapback]287686[/snapback]</div>

I hate when that line of reasoning comes up. It's so disingenuous. The definition of a word in the English language is based on it's common usage, not how it is parsed out.

The term anti-Semitism was coined in 1879 by Wilhelm Marr to designate the anti-Jewish campaigns underway in central Europe at that time. It has always been used to mean discrimination against Jews and therefore that's what the word means. It doesn't matter if it's a misnomer and trying to parse the word into meaninglessness will not make what the word describes go away.

Look it up in the dictionary sometime, and see what the definition of anti-Semitism is.

Here... I'll do it for you...

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/anti-semite

Main Entry: an·ti-Sem·i·tism
Pronunciation: "an-tE-'se-m&-"ti-z&m, "an-"tI-
Function: noun
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
- an·ti-Se·mit·ic /-s&-'mi-tik/ adjective
- an·ti-Sem·ite /-'se-"mIt/ noun

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Jul 17 2006, 12:41 PM) [snapback]287686[/snapback]</div>

Being Controversial does not remove someone from being an anti-semite. Also, even if he is not...to use the same arguments as those that are and to sympathize with those that are...puts him in a similar class. Also, using the term "Nazi" to anyone who is Jewish, especially when talking about Israel or anyone who is Jewish, screams of anti semitism. I mean, you really have to have extreme hatred for someone to use the most horrific event in their history against them in an argurment. This is why, even if he is no anti-semite, his arguments are very inflammatory at the least.

Doing this is not dignified...and therefore your argument that he deserves the same kind of dignity holds no water!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Jul 17 2006, 12:41 PM) [snapback]287686[/snapback]</div>

Yes, I started my argument that way...but then continued to argue my case...which Squid has never responded to. I made many points and asked him to defend/explain himself. He chooses to respond to only the areas where he wants and ignores the rest.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Jul 17 2006, 12:41 PM) [snapback]287686[/snapback]</div>

Up to this point I think you have made some good arguments and although I may not agree with you, you are not in the same class as Squid. However, defending him by saying that he is just controversial, and not saying that comparisons of Israel to the Nazi's were over the top, is not helping your argument.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Jul 17 2006, 12:41 PM) [snapback]287686[/snapback]</div>

Wrong. So with that argument...Mexicans should be called Americans...because American means "from the Americas". I agree with others, that is not how the word is used.

------

Mirza, we sympathize with the innocent people on both sides. In wars, innocent people do get hurt.

On the news today (I can't remember which station), they made the point that the Lebanese army does not have the power to doing anything about Hezbollah. So Hezbollah is the de-facto army for Lebanon. Since Hezbollah is also a big part of their goverment, when Hezbollah acted against Israel, then it was the same as Lebanon acting against Israel.

With any war, it is the politicians who start the wars, not usually the common people. The common people have to "duck" while the armies fight it out, and then pick up the pieces when the smoke clears. It is not fair and it sucks, but it is the reality of war.

Hamas and Hezbollah WILL continue to battle Israel forever. It has become part of their "religion" and I do not honestly believe that they want peace. Peace would mean that they would have to get regular jobs and would not have the power and forced prestige that they now have.

Has Israel been perfect - no! But Israelis could easily go about their lives without the fighting. I understand what you are saying about why some of the retaliation takes place...but they can not keep trying to punish Israel forever for past sins. This would be like the African Americans here continuously terrorizing and killing the whites over slavery. Eventually, things, no matter how horrific, need to be put in the past in order to move forward towards real peace.

I agree with you that this debate needs to stay on issues and not name calling.

Mike

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 17 2006, 03:56 PM) [snapback]287783[/snapback]</div>

If you ask any jew if they were touched by the Holocaust, you are sure to find that they lost a relative. If you ask any jew if they were touched by Stalin, many won't even know who you are talking about. I know that you are an intelligent person Squid, and I know that you know the differences in these comparisons.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 17 2006, 03:56 PM) [snapback]287783[/snapback]</div>

I think you have left something out of that story. Why would he bring that up unless you had already been talking about jews? Isn't that a strange question for you to ask someone...with all of the beauty and history in Europe, you ask about that?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 17 2006, 03:56 PM) [snapback]287783[/snapback]</div>

If someone let me know that if I could save my house and family by going after the crazies on the next block, you bet I would go after them! Israel has continuosly given these people the chance to rid themselves of the radicals, they simply can/will not. So that is why Israel has taken it upon themselves.

Just because the palestinians and lebanese do NOTHING and seem to be "helpless" does not make them any less culpable. Just like those in Germany who let the Nazi's run amuck...they are not blameless!

When the Nazi's were eventually beaten, weren't a lot of civilians also killed just because they were in the way of us getting to the Nazi's? That is what happens in wars, if you do not pick a side and stand with them, it is probable that both sides may trample you to get to each other. It is not RIGHT, it just happens.

The main thing that I would hope to see happen, is for Israel to help these people to better their lives...not just leave them once this is done. I think that Israel is fearful of letting these peoples get to strong, lest they use that to once again engage Israel (which is what has happened here with Hezbollah). It is scary that in the 6 years since Israel backed off of the Hezbollah they have greatly increased their arsenal and capacity to fight...and then purposely provoked Israel into another fight.

Unfortunately, that just plays into the Israelis fears that this would happen if they backed off. This just makes is worse for Hamas and Palestine, as Israel fears that Hamas would do the same as Hezbollah if left unchecked. It is just difficult to see a reasonable end to this.

 

The use of the term anti-semite and its definition was wrong. But the point I was trying to make is still the same and unaffected by the counterargument:

"Jews Are The Genetic Brothers Of Palestinians, Syrians, And Lebanese"
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/...00509003653.htm

That is ultimately the point I am making. That being said, I will use this article the explain my revised position:

I believe in science. Science and genetics shows that we are all related and none of this bullshit going on the world should even be happening. I listed to a report on NPR radio... it was an interview with some guy who has quite a bit of knowledge on groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah. He makes the case that Hezbollah will never desire peace until Israel is out of Arab lands. The problem with this thinking is that these groups are convinced that these lands, where is Israel is, was theirs to begin with.

I have the world view... scientifically proven... that we are related by common ancenstors... and events such as these should not be happening.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 17 2006, 06:23 AM) [snapback]287504[/snapback]</div>

That is the question.

While I'm curious about what classification levels Dr. Berman has in his mind as parameters, I'll let that go for now.

I plead directly to Dr. Fusco and Tony, in Danny's absence, to establish (at least temporarily) a higher standard against "hate speech" than what has heretofore been the case. Even if that means making more critical intellectual distinctions than they've been willing to make before, I ask them to make the effort.

Squid personally, and others (as Squid likes to say) "of his ilk", is not THE issue. The primary issue is "hate speech" (and its near-opposite, "civility")---admittedly a relatively new legal concept. As Dr. Fusco observed months ago, following our first round in Feb. on anti-Semitism, Squid is here to "stir the pot". He enjoys testing limits, and dislikes "authority". He's PC's own "shock jock", to the bemusement of some. That's Squid.

I've felt a change in atmosphere in FHOP since the Feb. blowup. IMO, it's been much less light-hearted and downright (at times) hilarious, despite occasional pointed efforts (mostly by Tony) to "lighten up", with an undertone of viciousness. Others may not agree with my perception. I'd like PC to be more like Bill Moyers and less like Jerry Springer in dealing with issues---and each other.

Obviously, I can be provoked into personal attack mode. I believe America's #1 problem of longstanding, day in and day out, is racial/ethnic/religious contemptuousness and hatred. I've done everything in my limited power to counteract it for almost 50 years. And I'm willing to risk being banned from PC or any other forum for saying what I think in that effort, much as I enjoy PC and stand in awe of the little car that has brought us all here.

There's a fine line in this case between being "anti-Semitic" and being a provocateur/shock-jock. Based on the sum total of his statements since February, and references to other links, I think Squid, in ADDITION to being our Howard Stern, IS a "shallow" anti-Semite, that is, one who is more likely to parrot "skinhead" rhetoric than to have studied history in any depth. That's my assessment and opinion. But, again, he is not the issue here so much as the words and thoughts he represents.

Jews, African-Americans and gays (just to name the top three), each due to their own "group's" unique historical circumstances, are the leading targets of those who would provoke hatred (and sometimes violence) against them in this country. I ask the honchos of PC to recognize that fact and give it more weight in their formulation of "free speech" for this site.