Crisis in Mid-East Escalates...

"So how bad could it get?"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm...-name_page.html

 

Mirza,

Can you put up one post with your bottom line... Your feelings on the thing and not a bunch of quotes from lunitics that I'm not going to chase to the link and read.

What is your position on the deal in black and white... Some of the things I'd like you to address from the pro-hamas, pro-hezbola point of view are the following:

Should both groups just keep the soldier hostages and Isreal turn back to home and stop bombing? (Isreal give up on getting their boys back, just abandon them in the hands of the enemy)

How far back should Isreal retreat?

Are you in support of 'wiping Isreal off the map'?

What do you propose Isreal do with the rockets that continue to come across the fence from their neighbor? Is it ok for them to keep coming over, and should they just do nothing about it?

How many busses/checkpoints per year/month with Isreali civilians/troops are acceptable to be blown up, and should Isreal just allow this and accept it as part of life?

In no particular order, as you feel the answers to flow. These are the problems I see from the Isreal point of view. These things are happening, so what should they do about it. Apparently bombing the people who do these things is not the right answer in your opinnion, so I would like to hear what you have to say.

I'm not pro-Isreal to be pro-Isreal. If spain was terrorizing france in the same manner, I'd be saying the same thing about that cause. Isreal lives on that land and has the right to defend itself against anyone coming across the established border to wack at them.

My point of view in black and white is this.... The things mentioned above continue to happen to your civilian population. It was a big problem until the enemy intruded across the border, killed some soldiers, kidnapped a few more. I agree that this act is an act of war. I agree that Isreal should bomb the crap out of the enemy that did it, and perhaps turn down the heat and restart the political solution process once the kidnapped soldiers are returned. Until then, bomb early, bomb often and use the big ones..

What say you?

 

1 - If that is your view, then I have to ask that you don't bother trying to argue against my points if you don't want to read the arguments or these 'lunatics.' They are controversial, but they are not lunatics.

2,3 - Hezbollah should return the soldiers... but realistically it's not going to happen. I am of the position that both Israel and Hezbollah be forced to stop. By stop I mean Hezbollah disarm, and Israel stop attacking. Realistically, I don't see this happening.

4 - I don't know. I take the side of the Palestinians because they are the underdogs, and I believe their story is less heard. My feelings have changed a bit after talking with IsrAmeriPrius via PM. Israel has one its right to exist... the Palestinians and Israelis should move to peace... with Palestinians doing the disarming first. But realistically, this isn't going to happen. The Palestinians are holding on to a grudge that they can't realistically ever hope to resolve by resisting. It's a lost cause and they need to give it up. They should have accepted the peace offers in recent history. I am beyond this point.

5. No. Like I said, I take the Palestinian side because they are the underdogs. One of my good friends in high school was of Jewish origin. Last I heard from some years ago, he was going to Israel to become a Rabbi. I gave my condolences to Isr, and expressed my sympathy for the rocket attacks hitting Israel.

6. They should have tried coordinating with the Lebanese government. Instead they are only making more enemies, imo.

7. Likewise, how many Palestinian homes have been bulldozed and taken from mostly innocents? Hezbollah attacks a military target, not a civilian... and the uproar is worse. That being said, I do not support the action. As I said before, Hezbollah knew what the consequences would be. Though they brought Israel's wrath upon Lebanon, it is still Israel's wrath that many innocent Lebanese are suffering from.

I believe that there is sufficient knowledge to say that the West (and I point at Imperialism - especially British global domination and line drawing) has in some part helped create the demon in the Middle East. These lunatics, as you like to call them, show you why. Take the rise of Iranian Islamic radicalism, for example. Please excuse the poor grammar, but things don't happen for no reason. I would gladly tell you why, but it's already been brought up several times, only to be criticized as liberal drivel or not payed any attention to... I guess the truth hurts and ignorance is bliss.

Let me get one thing clear. I am an atheist. I think their religious beliefs are flat out wrong (terrorists) and harmful to Earth. I hate these people because I would like to see the world go forward and progress... but on the other hand I have read about events... chain reactions that lead up to what is going on the Middle East... and the picture isn't very pretty.

I love democracy. What I don't love is Messaniac democracy. Or lying to spread democracy. And blindly trying to regime change the world, when some patience (and of course demanding strength) is required. I mean don't get me wrong... I have my moral issues with capitalism (as I think some Christians would too)... basically making the dollar a God. But that's another debate, and I am sure you will not agree.

I agree with the world leaders who say Israel needs to show more restraint in its bombings... because I really believe that more enemies are being created... as what happened with Iran, for example.

All that being said, I have read your viewpoint... and it seems reasonable to me. What I will not stand for is when people call the Palestinians dogs. It is a dehumanizing and irresponsible thing to say.

You may not see this in my posts in the thread, but I am a sympathizer for the Palestinians and Israelis (and not to mention the Lebanese). I take up for the Palestinian cause because they really are the underdogs in the conflict... and I think they have been oppressed... per some of the links I showed. I need not say more, because I have already said over and over why I hold that view.

That being said, I DO sympathize for the Israelis. A government is supposed to serve the interests of its people... and to that end... is exactly what Israel is doing. But reality is more complicated than that, as I hope to have expressed.

Bottom line: I believe Israel is going too far. I believe Hezbollah went too far. I believe the Jews have been persecuted far too long. I believe that Britain is the root cause of the Middle East conflict... which I believe is essentially a conflict over land with religious undertones. I believe history is important in understanding the way the world is today. I believe that one should not simplify events and base decisions on a cut off point, if there is any reason not to.

My final take on the crisis is this: both sides need to stop fighting and see the humanity in each of them. Hopefully if this crisis stops, I believe that there is a moral requirement for the bigger players to help the smaller ones. If Hezbollah is to disarm, it is the duty of the US and Israel to help Lebanon rebuild yet again. If the militant Palestinian groups disarm and accept peace, then I believe that Israel has the moral responsibility to help the Palestinians with aid (with justice being served to those individuals on both sides who have committed acts against humanity). Generally I do not see things in black or white, but more in terms of shades of grey.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 15 2006, 09:59 PM) [snapback]286993[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jul 15 2006, 02:30 PM) [snapback]286920[/snapback]</div>

What a great day it will be when the Star of David is added to the United States flag as the symbol of its annexation as the 51st State (together with its conquests of Saudia Arabia, Syria, and Iran) to the United States of America!

 

Thanks for the update Mirza....

I find it a bit odd to root for the underdog for underdog's sake, but that's fine, I didn't catch that in the earlier posts.

I figure about every 48 hours or so, hezbola or hamas will actually hit something with a rocket and kill a few isrealies which is going to then rachet up the Isreal response and make them a hair less interested in saving civilian casualties.

Point of observation: I don't know why 'peaceful muslims' don't rat out 'militant radical muslims'. Then, the leaders of these countries would bring justice internally to the radical groups so that events like we are seeing would not need to happen. If the leboneese govt would have rooted out these groups like they said they would, then these groups wouldn't have captured the Isrealie soldiers and then the 'innocent' people wouldn't be in a war zone. This is to say, the 'people' are not doing their part, and the governments are not doing thier parts and then both end up in the crap with the militants. Same thing in Iraq.

The weaker leboneese and palestinian groups have to give the soldiers back to isreal. I don't think they will succeed in stopping the bombing by throwing rocks at the gunships, and I don't think the media is going to fix it. Show me a picture of a crying woman next to a blown up house and I say I'm sorry to see that, but your extended ideologies brought on the war. War is hell, and that's what I see on your face in the sympathetic pictures.

Bottom line, palestinian society is not working for peace by allowing the radicals to go unchecked in their lands. Isreal would never get away with attacking anything as long as there were no provocations.

The arguement is 'isrealie oppression' causes the provocations.. I'm not sure I buy that.. what are the palestinians lacking? The rest of the world will feed them and give them everything they need if they just stop the crap. They stop the crap and Isreal can't afford to bomb them... The weaker nation is bringing this on themselves, so they should take it like a proud to be in the conflict nation I guess..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Jul 15 2006, 07:46 PM) [snapback]287012[/snapback]</div>

Mirza, recall that this latest (70 hours or less old) 'crisis' was instigated by the abduction and murder of an innocent Israeli farmer and the abduction of an Israeli soldier. Until then, there was 'a peace process in place and Hamas almost accepted Israel's right to exist. Then "somebody" (NOT an Israeli, BTW) decided to harm innocents.

As to the 'underdog' Palestinians, they are the ones with a continuing 'chip' on their shoulders, and they are being used by the likes of Iran and Syria (like Lebanon as well) in a proxy war against all infidels...even if it means killing Egyptian sailors on a civilian ship. This has all been done before and will continue for as long as their are 2 Islams and any Jews left in the world. Once all of the Jews are gone, the the Sunnis will kill the Shia (or vice versa). Once only Shia or Sunni is left, then I guess they will have to go after the remainder of the Infidels. Hopefully, your 12th great-grandchildren will see relief.

 

This is so helpful and instructive/illustrative of theocracies:

****8*****8*******88********8***********8


AP
Pakistani Youths Set Pizza Hut on Fire to Protest Cleric's Death

Sunday , July 16, 2006




KARACHI, Pakistan — Hundreds of youths set fire to a Pizza Hut restaurant, two gas stations and a dozen vehicles in Pakistan's biggest city, Karachi, after Saturday's funeral for an Islamic Shiite cleric killed in a suicide attack.

Rioters rampaged through a busy commercial area a day after a suicide bomber killed cleric Allama Hassan Turabi, his cousin and a police guard.

Police fired shots in the air, swung batons and used tear gas to control the crowd.

Hours earlier, Turabi was buried at a city cemetery after more than 8,000 people, beating their chests with their hands as a sign of grief, packed the city streets for his funeral.

Most of the crowd dispersed peacefully after the ceremony, but a gang of youths damaged shops and torched a Pizza Hut, two state-owned gas stations and several vehicles, apparently expressing general anger at the U.S. and Pakistani governments.

Turabi's son denounced the violence.

"My father always advocated for peace and sectarian harmony, and those people who torched cars and shops have no links to my father's party," Murtaza Turabi told reporters after the funeral.

He said his father's assassination was a "conspiracy to pitch Shiites and Sunnis against each other," and he demanded punishment for those behind the suicide attack.

Pakistan is a key U.S. ally in what Washington calls the war on terror. Many Shiites identify Pizza Hut with the American administration and have burned the chain's outlets after previous attacks on their leaders.

Pakistan has been plagued for years by attacks blamed on extremist elements among the Sunni and Shiite sects of Islam, targeting places of worship and religious leaders. The attacks often lead to rioting.

About 80 percent of Pakistan's 150 million people are Sunni; most of the rest are Shiite. The majority live together in peace.

The weekend violence came despite top Shiite clerics' appeals for calm.

Senior police official Mushtaq Shah said hundreds of police had fanned out across Karachi after riots that started Friday night, when youths smashed a bank and some shops, and began arson attacks.

"We are avoiding the use of force, and trying to control situation with help from Shiite clerics," he said.

Karachi is about 750 miles northeast of Pakistan's capital, Islamabad.

Turabi, who had narrowly escaped an attempt on his life in April, had led a Shiite party called Islamic Tehreek Pakistan and was a provincial chief for the hard-line opposition Islamic coalition Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal, also called MMA, or United Action Forum.

Hours before Turabi's funeral, deputy MMA chief Allama Sajid Naqvi had said that since the slain cleric "always worked for peace and sectarian harmony," those who love him must remain peaceful.

The government has described Turabi's assassination as an act of terrorism, and promised to do all they could to arrest those behind it.

Police said they have found the suspected bomber's detached head.

A suicide bombing at a Sunni gathering in a Karachi park killed 57 people in April. It was one of Pakistan's deadliest bombings in recent years, and sparked three days of rioting in Karachi by Sunnis.

FOXNews.com

 

Mirza,

I can somewhat understand why you call the Palestinians underdogs...because they lack the physical and political might that Israel has.

However, I simply can not take the excuses from the Lebanese, Palestinians, Somalians, Iraqies...and the list goes on...where they allow the terrorist groups to co-exist in their commumity. They out number these radicals by so many, yet let them dictate what happens to their country!

If Hamas abducted an Israeli soldier, and then the Palestinian people chased down the kidnappers, and rescued the soldier, this would be a mute point.

If Hezbollah abducted several Israeli soldiers, and then the Lebanese people chased down the kidnappers, and rescued the soldier, this would be a mute point.

Instead I see the people dancing in the streets to celebrate!

I am not a Bush supporter, but I do agree with him when he said that "you are either with us or against us" when it comes to terrorists. This holds true for Israel as well. If the governments of these countries do not help Israel, then they are against Israel.

As long as these radicals are allowed to co-exist in these countries, basically unchecked...and even allowed to join the governments...these countires are going to suffer for it.

Israel has given both the Palestinians and the Lebanese ample opportunity to police their own...and they do not! All these countires have done is welcome these terror groups into their governments instead of outlawing them and dispanding them. Look in Afganistan and Pakistan, where those governments are attempting to track down and eliminate the radicals...if Israel was to attack them when they showed that they were making this effort, then Israel would be wrong. But here that is not the case!

Just imagine if we let the gangs in our major cities join our goverment! That is just crazy! We can not stand for "radicals" to be allowed to participate in these governments, because they never drop their agendas...they just "play" along for a while.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Jul 15 2006, 07:46 PM) [snapback]287012[/snapback]</div>

Another note: While it is easy for Hezbollah to strike a 'military' target in Israel, because Israel chooses to locate its military away from civilians, it appears that to the most part, Hamas and Hezbollah, as well as the so-called insurgents prefer to co-locate their military in markets, houses, and mosques. That way, retalitory strikes have the biggest "evening news" factor.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 16 2006, 12:52 PM) [snapback]287213[/snapback]</div>

It takes one to know one.

Herr Goebbels would have been very proud of you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 16 2006, 02:52 PM) [snapback]287213[/snapback]</div>

Besides trying to beat the rats back on to their own side of the fence, and putting up with the palestinians blowing up civilians riding busses home from church, what exactly are the Isrealies doing to the palestinians...

Because, if you could get a condition where the fence goes up, the gates are closed and each party lives on his own side of the fence and they never make social calls, I'd bet Isreal would take that offer in a second.

Palestine has all the free stuff they want... the rest of the world is lining up to hand over anything they want (food, cement, clothes, whatever) if they will just stop screwing with Isreal.

If Isreal's oppression consists of trying not to die at the hands of a radical palestinian, then I'd say to opress on. Put me in charge in Isreal and we're building a fence 200 feet inland from the UN specified border. High and thick with no gates... with auto fire 50mm cannons that kill anything that gets within 200 feet of the fence. Don't send your kid in there, put the goat on a short leash. The automated system doesn't care what approaches the fence.

The Palestinians stay on their side of the fence and the USA, Europe and Iran figure out how to feed and water and clothe them. Whatever that cost would be cheaper than what we have today.

some arguements about having family members on one side or the other of the fence... but those days are gone. Pick a side and get used to it. Take your family with you if need be, but the roaming thing across the border is over.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Jul 15 2006, 09:59 AM) [snapback]286771[/snapback]</div>

I believe that this comment is based in naiveté or ignorance.

Unlike the Arab terrorists who intentionally target civilians, women, the young, the old and the infirmed, the IDF targets the terrorists, their leadership and their infrastructure. Sometimes, due to the fact that the cowards hide amongst the civilian population, there are collateral deaths of innocent by standers. At other times, regretful mistakes have been made. On very rare occasion, rouge members of the military broke the law and policy when they intentionally harmed innocent civilians (not unlike what had happened in Iraq at the hands of U.S. troops). They were prosecuted and punished to the full extent of the law.

The bottom line is that unlike the cowardly scum of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and their like, the IDF, as an institution, never selects innocent civilians as the primary target.

This morning, my home town and the neighborhood where I grew up came under attack. Eight civilians died. Am I angry? You bet I am

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 16 2006, 12:52 PM) [snapback]287213[/snapback]</div>

Mystery Squid...I gotta say that what you wrote is just a bunch of baloney!

No other alternative? Are you kidding? Are you saying that the millions and millions of dollars spent each year on terrorism could not have been spent to better the palestinians or lebanese or afganies? If they had real jobs and real industry then they, like us, would have very little time to worry about all of their old hatred. Just look at Iraq...when everyone was working, the Sunnis and Shites live together in relative peace. After their businesses were destroyed and they had nothing to dwell on but their differences, they started killing each other again!

I can almost understand the mentality of the poor everyday street Palestinians who truly have nothing and throw rocks at the Israeli military...they truly have nothing and feel as though they have no alternative...but not because of Israel...because the leaders of their countries suck in all of the money to build their palaces, drive their fancy cars, for terrorism, and for security so that no one (in their own country) can topple their regime. Let's face it, those in power in these countries like the deep separation between them and their people...it is how they create and keep power.

Please be very careful when comparing the Nazi's to anyone. Comparing Israel to someone who killed over 11 million people is not just something you just throw out there for shock factor (maybe you are one of those "the holocaust never happened people") Israel has not targeted anyone for total elimination! They have no issue living side by side with anyone...except when that someone keeps killing them! No one, I repeat, NO ONE is keeping the Palestinians there...they have every right to leave...but they will not, because like many extremists, their chosen life includes hatred that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Boy, you would get a great reception by the families of those who perished on 9/11. I would love to see you explain to them how Osama had "no alternative" to attack the United States. Poor old Osama...he couldn't have used those millions spent carrying out 9/11 on schools or food or education for his people.

Just look at Japan as an example...what did they do after we dropped the bomb. They did not choose the "woe as me" approach, they buckled down and focused on industry and education...couldn't it be said that they had "no alternatives" and so they should have just terrorized us forever?

I really hope that your post was meant to stir things up and you really do not believe that garbage...

If that is the case, it worked!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 16 2006, 12:52 PM) [snapback]287213[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 16 2006, 12:52 PM) [snapback]287213[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jul 16 2006, 02:01 PM) [snapback]287230[/snapback]</div>

[/b][/quote]OH, FREAKIN' THANKS SQUID!!!! :angry: :angry: :angry:
Make me agree with IsrAmeriPrius.
EEewwwwhhh!
That's up there with the shock to the system I receive when I agree with a stance the ACLU takes.
WWWweeeeeehhhh!!!!!
I think I will now go take a shower now and hope I can feel less contaminated. :lol:

P.S. Squid, No other alternative? :huh:
Talking was doing just fine . . . but it is now being made very clear that talk only goes so far with Hamas and Hezbollah.

 

What you take into your hands, you also take into you heart...

Take hatred in your hands, and so it will be in your heart.

Take love and peace into your hands, and it too will be in your heart.

I look for that day when we all can live in a world of peace.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 16 2006, 11:52 AM) [snapback]287213[/snapback]</div>

I think Squid has looked forward since the tete-a-tete in Feb. to the (to him) "opportunity" openly to equate Israel with the Hitler regime. "Tempering" it with "quasi" and "esque" doesn't soften it, Squid. It's a "concentration camp" and it justifies terrorism, hmm?

For the record, I think Israel overreacts badly at times. I also empathize with the Palestinians a LOT, more due to the miserable leadership long exercised in their name than because they are poor and mostly powerless. (Obviously, the latter arises from the former.)

No, Squid, there's nothing wrong even with being pro-Palestinian, depending upon how one interprets history. But there IS something basically sick about wanting to equate Jews and Israel with Nazis and Hitler. It betrays either an underlying hatred of Jews or an appalling lack of discrimination, likely arising from poor education or low intelligence.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Jul 15 2006, 06:46 PM) [snapback]287012[/snapback]</div>

Solid, Mirza.