Consumer Reports Prius Prime Review (Aug 3 2017)

Newsflash: journalists are not government law enforcement agencies. Consumer Reports does NOT have the authority to enforce the law. You are missing the point of the free press.

 

As buyers of the press, we are also free to choose who gets our 'gold.'

Bob Wilson

 

Actually, No.

The ICCT suspected that VW emissions technology to reduce Nox emissions was being used on US cars and being with-held from the German market, so they commissioned UWV to run on-road emissions testing to prove their stance. When it became clear that the on-road emissions of VW diesels was just as dirty in the US, the findings were forwarded to EPA and CARB who then opened an investigation with VW.

VW initially stonewalled the US authorities, but when repeat testing after a software patch did not correct the emissions, the US regulatory authorities issued a non-compliance finding. They then looked into the cause and determined it was due to operation of undisclosed defeat devices. The authorities then looked at other VW and associated companies' diesels and found other defeat devices leading to additional sanctions.

You should understand that the EPA testing authority is a tiny dept (and being slashed by the fools in charge of the White House these days.) Compliance has always been through a big stick.

 

Yup. Further proof that the EPA's one-device, indoor-only testing method is bad:
"the ICCT contracted scientists from West Virginia University to test emissions from three light-duty diesel vehicles under more-realistic conditions than are possible in the lab. To do so, the scientists fitted cars with a portable emissions measurement system to gather a continuous stream of data over a variety of US road types.
... Several studies have shown that on-road emissions of NOx from diesel passenger cars, including vehicles made by manufacturers other than Volkswagen, substantially exceed the levels measured in the laboratory. The results have raised concerns about the validity of current approval procedures..."
The science behind the Volkswagen emissions scandal : Nature News & Comment

It is truly frightening to know that Rick Perry was chosen by Heir tRump to be the figurehead of his lust to the dismantle the EPA.
About the ICCT | International Council on Clean Transportation

 

Valid, unless cheating takes place.

The EPA approach actually worked in this case: the build-out of the charging network on VW's dime will compensate for the extra pollution, and the penalties will deter others. If you want the EPA to catch criminals earlier, you have to give them the budget and manpower to test much more widely.

 

LOL! Are you trying to say that the EPAs failure proves it works?

 

I am saying that with very few resources, the EPA does a surprisingly good job. Moreover, that it is set up to deter criminals through huge penalties for those that get caught.

The American law enforcement system is pretty much set up the same way: easy to commit a crime, low chance of being caught, but big penalties for those that do get caught eventually. And those that are caught are frequently from whistle-blowers.

 

LOL! Tell that to Bernie Madoff's victims. And the dead drivers of Chevrolet Corvairs.

How's this sound: Before making any car purchase, most people would be wise to take Consumer Reports multitude of robust, up to date test results very seriously (while they take the EPAs flawed, single source, self-policed test with a grain of salt).

 

You can tell it to just about any victim of crime in America. The system is set up for punishment of the offender, not prevention.

 

For you, the CR results happen to be right. For me, and many others, they are wrong. No single test is going to give a right result for every driver out there.

A person can get a real world estimate for a model and their driving cycle from the EPA numbers. It just requires basic math skills, and actually knowing what they get in their current car. ex. You get 35mpg in a 2005 Prius. That is 76% of the EPA combined rating. 76% of the 2017 Prius combined is 39.5mpg. That is probably the closer to any third party testing will get for any individual.

You can't do that with CR numbers because of the variables changing between when those cars were tested.

And how did CR keeping their methods secret catch VW in cheating?

First, for any testing to be scientific, the methods and data has to be available for others to double check the work.

Second, CR's tests do not take longer, and aren't done through various road and weather conditions. They drive the new cars around for 2000 miles to do the 'break in' wear of the car. This is mostly to the tires, and the EPA rules specify the tires on the test car can't have more than 4000 miles of wear. CR then performs their tests. For the MPG ones, they run the track courses at least twice, and the on road one on way, and then back. That's it. They do not repeat the test later in different weather or seasons.

Third, we need proof that CR is statistically more accurate than EPA. Fuelly user data appears to say otherwise.

Actually, the WVU team were able to confirm that something was up with the VWs' emissions because they were able to run those two cars through the exact same testing the EPA uses for comparison to their results. Without that, the onroad results for the two cars could have been dismissed as something wrong with those cars.

And where was CR on the whole dieselgate thing? They were as duped as everybody else. They actually had no chance of catching VW because they don't give a damn about emissions. The onboard emission testing devices only became affordable recently. One of the other auto mags has a testing service perform emission testing as part of their review. Is CR planning on doing so?

The cars chosen for in house EPA testing are run on equipment different than what the manufacturer used.

CR runs a city track, highway track, and then one road highway. With repeats, that is just 6 test runs. A car under going EPA testing will do the city cycle alone dozens of times. CR doesn't have the resources to run the level of testing that the EPA requires.

How do you know the CR test is up to date, or even if it has changed or when? It is all secret remember.

Wayne Gerdes at CleanMPG on road test testing is far better than CR's. He gives you the times, weather, and route. The steady speed test also covers a range of speeds. Not just one.

 

I agree! Wayne does excellent testing.

 

The "drag" introduced by regeneration when you are rolling down a "hill" is factored into the dynamometer settings? In the car, much of that energy is recovered as battery charge, but is just lost in the dynamometer. I still don't see how this all adds up. If the settings on dynamometer include "engine drag", transmission losses, and tire rolling resistance, aren't those going to be counted twice on the dynamometer test, once by the car itself, and once on the dynamometer? I am just trying to get my mind around how this all works in a car like a Prius.

 

As I understand things, the dyno settings are set from roll down tests -- presumably in neutral ?
Regen then becomes part of ICE efficiency, which is not dialed into the dyno friction.

The dyno friction is only meant to turn a stationary car into a virtual moving car outside. Think road and wind; and perhaps ambient temperature and humidity. The inner workings of a car are not included in the dyno settings because they are captured during the test as CO2 emissions.

 

And here is the crux of our debate: Consumer Reports is for average folks to help predict reliability and costs PRIOR TO PURCHASE. Nobody wants to get stuck with an unsafe lemon, or a gas guzzler. Consumer Reports is specifically set up for the average guy, rather than Wayne Gerdes' (and obsessive Fuelly users') amazing maximum tests.

 

This looks like weather testing to most drivers, but maybe trollbait likes to , uh, troll...

No weather testing?
Water testing

(Credit: Consumer Reports)

The track does have special area of the track to test wet conditions if natural conditions don't allow, featuring sprinklers that dampen the track.

Ice testing

(Credit: Consumer Reports)
With the fickle Connecticut winters, when there isn't natural ice available to test at the track, Consumer Reports takes cars inside -- and tests vehicles at a local ice rink.

Snow testing

(Credit: Consumer Reports)
Same as ice, when the natural conditions aren't right to test vehicles in the snow, Consumer Reports hits the road and takes vehicles to another site in New England where powder can be found.

 

+1

 

Just because your fuel economy results match what CR got doesn't make you or them the representative for some average guy. The route you drive every day is not the same for me, nor millions of others. For us, the CR numbers are complete crap.

Now I've shown how the EPA numbers can be used by every one to get a fuel use estimate for any car they are looking at. For all those people that don't get CR numbers, using this technique there has uncertain results, because CR does not control for variables between models.

Gerdes gets some amazing numbers, but I did not bring him up because of that. It was because he gives his readers far more info about the route, traffic, and weather for the test than CR does. This gives the reader some idea how close the conditions are to what they experience on their commute. Then Gerdes' steady speed fuel consumption tests are done by simply turning on the cruise control, no advance hypermiling techniques, just like CR does for their highway portion. Gerdes just does it for multiple speeds, and presents all the data.

As for obsessive Fuelly users, have even been to the site?
2016 Toyota Prius MPG - Actual MPG from 230 2016 Toyota Prius owners
The 2016 Prius is averaging 53mpg there. That data comes from 230 cars bought by average, real people, and driven over 2.8 million combined miles. That is a far, far larger sample size than the EPA or CR use for their numbers. And if you actually click on the link, you'll see that there are users getting numbers worse than CR.

sure, that new, whatevs

Does the EPA number include acceleration rates, slalom times, braking distance, etc.? No, they test emissions and fuel economy.
CR tests in other weather and road conditions for handling and other performance/safety metrics. They don't do fuel consumption testing in them. In a past statement, they even said they don't do the MPG testing if it's wet out.

 

That is not the crux at all.

You were disparaging the EPA for not catching the VW cheating earlier. You may not have noticed, but CR did not catch them either.

 

Correction: Consumer Reports equipment was not fooled by VWs computer hack, but the EPA was, big time.

 

I thought CR didn't test emissions, and the hack was all about trading off emissions for other factors if it determined that it was not in "emissions test" mode.