Comparison Test: 2009 Toyota Prius vs. 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI

Let's not forget that I am a heavy pusher of a conflicting motto: JUST DRIVE IT

The fact that doing that also qualifies as hypermiling for the 2010 Prius a source of confusion.
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In memory of the thread title, "Comparison Test: 2009 Toyota Prius vs. 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI," we have these user reports from the EPA web site:


This chart puts the middle values of all three series in the center of the chart. This makes it easy to keep the outliers on each end somewhat apart from the middle values. The trend lines are simple, 3d degree polynomials that appear to fit nicely with the data.

Bob Wilson

 

I didn't say anything about an apology. I was pointing out the myriad holes in the argument. Yes, I'm aware of the EPA scale adjustment and that he's driving a different VW diesel. (I'm well aware of what it means and this is central to the point I'm making. Wish you could see the forest for the trees.)

The EPA factor reset proves the definition as stated by others here as being an anachronism--even if someone were to actually link to this supposed holy "formal definition" which has not been sourced and linked so far...

Hyper carries clear connotations that are at odds with the claims being made as well as the general understanding of the Prius public of what hypermiling is. The CleanMPG page that comes closest to a definition stresses the maximizing aspect multiple times, in effect refuting the assertion that merely beating an EPA figure at some point in time is hypermiling.

Contrary to some here claiming that the dictionary definitions have it wrong, the editors seem to have absorbed the central theme far better than the CleanMPG members who are hitching their wagon to a definition that would be anachronistic at best. Since the new averages are more inline with what the average driver gets we can all be "hypermilers" without really "striving" for it. Oops! There's another problem with the purported definition.

 

Yep, that's something they don't seem to have noted, but I've been chuckling about. Apparently most of us are hypermilers now if the Gen II mileage poll is to be believed. :rockon:

I note now they've pulled out a glossary listing last updated in 2007 before the EPA changes took effect. Sheesh.

Maybe it is an attempt take advantage of the EPA derating to be more inclusive? Something out of Meet the Fockers "Oh I didn't know they make 9th place ribbons."

 

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/a-lead-foots-guide-to-hypermiling.htm

 

the term hypermiler is not what you, or you, or even you say it is, just because you say so.

it is not necessarily what a website says it is, even if that website is run by the original coiner of the term.

the definition is what the world generally understands the term to mean

the world understands the term to mean the intentional use of techniques, by enthusiasts who typically self-identify as hypermilers, to achieve significantly higher than normal/EPA rated mileage

i don't care what anybody else here thinks the word means, or who coined it, or how websites define it - it means what it means to the general population, and i believe my take on that general meaning is fairly accurate

 

While we are off-topic, I want to question the term hypermiling that got around the media due to the $4.50 gas price.

Who gave CleanMPG the authority to define it? Why not another site like www.hypermiling.com? EPA does not acknowledge it; yet the hypermiling definition uses the EPA figure. I don't believe car manufacturers use it either.

Oxford dictionary (11 years history) added the word but not the Merriam Webster dictionary (203 years history). What is the exact definition in the Oxford dictionary? Wouldn't Oxford have the authority to define it then?

Back to the topic.... Bob, that's an interesting graph.

John, I can't wait to see your "Just Drive It" MPG comparison with the Iconic vs 2010 model.

 

Just my 2 cents, before the 2008 EPA downgraded the mileage rating, one must do "hypermiling" techniques in order to get the rated mileage.
Since the term was coined before 2008, to reach or exceed the EPA rating is hypermiling by definition. With the revised rating, it is easy to get the EPA mileage but exceeding it still requires some form of driving technique.
For example, I can just drive normally but 5-10 miles below speed limit I can get 20% above EPA rating without the pulse and glide. Am I hypermiling, I bet it is because this is one of techniques.

 

bedrock8x,

On many roads you could just set cruise control at the speed limit and still exceed the new EPA rating by 10% or more depending on the particular limits. Our Prius was beating the EPA combined (and usually the higher city figure) right out of the box until winter hit.

The fallacy of the "formal definition" being asserted now is that pre-2008 it implied some effort/multiple hypermiling techniques to achieve pre-2008 ratings, not a "just drive it" mainstream approach. When one knocks the ratings down considerably such a definition would become an anachronism and not what was intended. Looking up the updated ratings a car I drove really hard and optimized for performance (WOT, redline every day, jack rabbit starts/stops, pressing at the limits of adhesion through corners with sticky tires and modified suspension, various bolt on engine upgrades) would actually qualify as having been hypermiled according to my gas records. And my 4x4 V8 Tundra exceeds its highway MPG at 75-80 mph interstate cruise...I've had better mileage with it there than on 60-65 mph highways where I was targeting better fuel efficiency.

 

> I would be quite interested to see what a clean diesel full hybrid 'could do'.

The new BMW's concepts are getting 64MPG with mega HP and 0-60 in 4.8 sec. If Toyota isn't working on a diesel hybrids, they will be left in the dust.

I still contend that they Prius has absolutely zero, zippo style – it’s downright ugly and has no gusto at all. I guess Business Week Concurs with my dork-mobile assessment. Check out their list of the 50 ugliest cars. The Prius made the cut!

 

Is that Euro or EPA or CAFE or Japanese scale? Imperial or US gallons?

It really makes a difference. Prius is already at 70.9 on US CAFE scale, 72 mpg on a Euro scale, and 90 mpg on a Japanese scale.

And proud of it!

 

Of course you feel that way. You didn't buy one. Do you have the ability to design a car that can compete with the Prius' cargo room, passenger room, cd, and overall size?

The beauty of the car is in it's design, not it's basic outside appearance. I see your logic in the same light as most people who are ignorant of ecosystem services and say a wetland is ugly so let's drain it.

 

Unless you are using a different definition of 'concept' than I do, a concept vehicle is a show car 'made to showcase a concept, new styling, technology and more.'* So it does not even have to have a engine, meet any safety or environmental rules, or indeed be mobile at all. Any claim can be made for a concept vehicle, Chevy claims Volt gets 230 MPG, until there is a production Volt, no one can say different.

I some how doubt any BMW has a million** Horsepower, Bugatti claims a thousand.

I have worked with many Diesel Hybrids, mostly the Komatsu 830E*** Not street legal, low top speed, bad mileage, but lots of cargo room! Cool Pantographs!****


* [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept_vehicle"]Concept vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
** Mega- - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
*** [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komatsu_830E"]Komatsu 830E - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
**** Pantograph (rail) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Only a little off topic, but what the hey --- Lets see, BMW has a wet dream car that will never see production and meanwhile,Toyota will leep frog everyone when they are the 1st to bring an afordable EV to market. And I don't give a rats toenail about style --- with 20 gallons stored of stabilized gas in Osha approved steel cans, I can go 6 months with the Prius without having to go near the urbam areas when the bad guys or natural disasters disrupt the fuel supplys -- to me the car is an insurance policy. And if things get really out of hand, I can always add a supplemental battery pack and plug in. Of course, if all is well, I can just burn the stored gas as usual. So style and ugly --- who cares when your riding and they're walking.

 

Quite the opposite is true. And that's not opinion, but fact. Here is why: if it had "zero, zippo style" then it wouldn't evoke much of an emotional response, positive or negative. That it evokes both is a measure of style. The Gen II has a fair bit of style, the Gen III builds on that. Variations on a theme.

There is beauty to something with form that follows its function--especially when in so doing it satisfies the definition of style: "a distinctive quality, form, or type of something." (Merriam-Webster.) The fact that the majority of they hybrid market sales is presently defined by this style...including imitators also proves your assertion false. It also hurts your assertion that hybrid marketshare continues to grow.

What would be accurate is that you don't care for its style at all and consider it ugly. That is a fair assessment as it is merely opinion. I don't find it ugly, never have. It's not sports car sexy either. And thankfully it isn't pimped out with gaudy side mouldings, headlight guards, and non-functional bulges/perforations of many pretenders. It's odd that you seem to be proud of being in agreement with a failing magazine in your ugly assessment. At least pick a publication with a recent track record of getting it right...rather than wrong.

There have been many vehicles over the years that have no real style: ho-hum uninspired trucks and cars that are so generic nobody even notices them on the road or knows their model name. B-O-R-I-N-G. Love it or hate it, the Prius is not one of those.

 

This is true with everything in nature. How can anyone not see this beauty (in Prius)?

 

So I have about 8,500 miles now on my 2010 Jetta TDI 6 speed manual sedan. Winter driving in the Northeast has taken a bite out of my mpg. Through November my average mpg for around town with country road driving was 44.3. My best highway mileage on a trip was 56.2mpg, and my worst highway mileage during a torrential rain in the low 40’s. I did some rough calculations on the weight of the water that is being pushed with the front of the vehicle at an inch an hour and at 60mph, and it’s astonishingly high. That along with the resistance from the water on the road has a significant impact on mpg. I never thought much about it when driving my truck or one of my other fuel hogs! I had my first tank that yielded less than 40mpg in December, but that was with two 8-10in snow storms in the same week. The rolling 8 week average is around 42. I’m also running Michelin X-Ice Xi2 snow tires that I mounted on 12/1 that may be reducing my mpg. My guess is that my annual 12 month average for around town will yield 43ish, and highway will yield mid 50’s. I’m focusing on breaking in the diesel right now and not necessarily maximizing my mileage, though. I’m told by other TDI veterans that I should expect the mileage to improve after 20-30k on the odometer. So fare I’m happy with the TDI decision. This is the first foreign built car that I’ve owned in nearly 20 years. I keep my cars for 200-300k, so we’ll see if my opinion changes as longer term reliability starts to factor in.

I was interested to see that the same couple that were able to AVERAGE 58.8 mpg with their TDI traveling through 48 states in 2008, broke their record in 2009 using Goodyear Assurance Fuel Max tires and AVERAGED 67.9mpg over 9500 miles in 48 states. AMAZING. I’ll have to look into those tires when my current summer treads wear out. http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/mileage-champs-break-another-record-in-vw-jetta-tdi/

Lastly, my purchase of the Jetta TDI over the Prius and other hybrids that I looked at was based a combinations of style, technology (I’ve always been a fan of diesels in my heavy equipment) and, economics (fuel economy) – not necessarily because it was awarded the green car of the year. However, for those who are considering a hybrid because its “greenness,†you may want to rethink your understanding of green. There are over 30 lbs of rare-earth natural resources that go into the overly complex battery and motor technology of each and every Prius (I like the simplicity of the TDI). There simply aren’t enough rare-earth materials to perpetuate this type of hybrid technology. There have been some good documentaries on NPR (and others) on this subject - just Google Prius and rare-earch. Here are a few links. Guess who owns 50% of rare earth material? China.

http://www.cargurus.com/blog/2009/08/31/toyota-prius-king-of-green-or-earth-killer

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/rare-earth-thought-being-green-and-supply-and-subsequent-demand-earth-elements

 

I've included December and January in my mileage:

• 8,912.1 miles
• 51.3 MPG overall
• 53.1 MPG average tank

Why did you exclude December and January? Didn't drive?

I'm saving my Yankee Greenback dollars at the pump ... the only green that I care about. To give a clue, Alabama has no annual vehicle inspections and I'm good with that. You're suffer from a hubris that thinks because our cars are more efficient than yours, we must be leaf-lookin', bambi lovers. I'm good with that because the only "green" that counts is passing between buyers and sellers. The Prius is doing quite fine ... especially compared to diesel sales.

Bob Wilson

 

Hey go easy! I'm a leaf-lookin, bambi lovin', whale kissing, dirt worshiper.

 

Excluding December & January is most definitely cherry-picking. But if you want to discuss data through November, here's mine: 11,472 miles resulting in a calculated average of 52.3 MPG.

I don't have to shift gears either. Prius emissions are quite a bit cleaner too.
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