Coasting through stop signs legally

That thing sucks!

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It is (or was) very poorly designed. I almost got hit twice in our shiny new Prius by two dolts, one who wasn't paying attention and the other who didn't know what they were doing. It also didn't help that it was stormy weather.

 

Not all roundabouts are round, this is the Britania Round-about near where I lived before I built my house. It has had several redesigns and many proposed replacements. The only traffic control as efficient as a round-about is a flyover and cloverleaf which is much bigger and expensive. Roundabouts allow traffic to move in all directions at once. Unfortunately there are a lot of low speed bumps on this one, but it is very safe considering the traffic volumes it carries.
Google Maps

Now this isn't how to build a roundabout.
This is the Arc de Triomphe a mad space free for all. Have an accident here and your insurance company don't want to know.
Google Maps
You might notice there are no lane markings. I have no idea how they took this picture, normally it is full of cars. If you ever drive in Paris avoid this at all cost. You can visit the monument by walking through a tunnel. I recomment the excelent rail service to get about in Paris.

 

"Rolling stop" is what the police called it when I was a teen. IF you are not going to stop then you must accept the consequences: accidents, tickets, etc. of breaking the law.

Roundabouts work fine in low to moderate traffic areas. When traffic gets really heavy huge backups occur trying to enter the circle. I have set for what seems like forever, probably no longer than the average light, waiting to enter. There was just was no room unless someone in the circle stopped to let me in.

A three lane roundabout with heavy traffic can really slow down with cars trying to change lanes, get in and out. Like most traffic control devices they need to be designed to meet the load of cars. Like most controls, with a stop, 2 or 4 way being the most basic, they do take more real estate.

Bob

 

Hi Michael,

Well, if there is an out of control SUV coming up behind you, and no traffic in front, left or right, one could run through the stop sign turning right. The out of control SUV then proceeds past you, hits a curb and rolls. But at least it did not hit you or your car.

Another situation would be a two-lane road with a fire truck coming up from behind, and oncomming traffic stopped across the intersection. Side traffic will be stopped because of the lights and sirens. Then one could pull through the stop sign intersetion giving the fire truck a passage through the intersection.

 

if you want to roll through stop signs,
maybe you should review this thread first

 

We had traffic circles in NJ, like the Airport Circle and the Marlton Circle where major highways intersected. What a mess and the NJ Motor Vehicle Code is silent about right of way at the circle. Over the years these circles were eliminated and intersections controlled with traffic lights were built. Now circles are back in fashion thanks to the new generation of engineers. Too bad they haven't learned from history.

 

OK, I humbly stand corrected. Or informed at least. Good one. But.....


Now that I think about it I recall having pulled into an intersection by a few feet when light was red in order to let an EMERGENCY vehicle through. I presume that is completely legal too, or at a minimum the cops would ignore it (as long as I didn't cause any accident.)


Funny thing is, here at least, there is no specific exemption in speeding or red light laws for emergency vehicles. If they cause an accident, they will be charged. (In theory. In practice cops rarely charge other cops.) But otherwise, in emergency situations, the cops will IMO rightfully "ignore the infraction".

So, unless you can tell me there is a specific exemption in your red light laws for people trying to avoid an accident, I'd say it's just similar to the above. I.E. the cops will not charge you, but if YOU cause an accident (even by trying to avoid one), then they will charge you.

So if this is correct, then going through a red light is STILL NEVER legal, but you might get away with it, and sometimes you have moral authority to get away with it.

So is this much different than the "Moral Authority" I might claim to have in the sake of saving fuel ? Is this much different than someone merely trying to avoid property damage to their or others cars ? Yes, "moral authority" may be greater if injury is avoided.

Anyway, BAM, right back at ya.... Discuss....

 

Hi Michael,

There is the "reasonable person" exemption for all traffic laws in the US to avoid an accident, I believe. But I am no lawyer. And I have put the exemption to good use. In other words, you can break any traffic law, if in the judgment of a reasonable person that is the safe thing to do to avoid an accident.

One incident an old truck stalled and the inexperienced driver just hit his brakes hard, probaby affraid of rolling backwards and came to a stop on a slight upgrade just after turning left across 2 lanes of oncoming traffic. I was behind it, and already committed to the turn, so I went around the truck in the left turn lane of the opposite direction portion of the road we were turning off onto, rather than just come to a stop behind the truck and be broadsided by the oncomming 50 mph traffic. If there would have been a car in the left turn lane, the option would have been to turn right and come to a stop the wrong way, but on the shoulder of the road out of the way of the oncoming traffic. Both of these actions are illegal except for the reasonable person exemption.

But your at the mercy of the judge in this situation. I was in traffic court once, back in the early 80's and heard a case about a guy with a Gremlin X who got a failure to yield citation, and lost the case. There is a big plant where this guy works, and police officers back then directed traffic out of the plant at quiting time. He was commanded by the officer to stop, but fealt with the icy road conditions stopping in such a short distance in a Gremlin X would endager the pedestrian officers life, due to the the tendancy of that car to swap ends. Another officer in a squad car chased him down and gave him the ticket. The Judge went with the judgement of the officers, but was probably incorrect. Maybe a legally safer thing to do would have been to slow at a safe rate in the Gremlin X, and end up in the middle of the intersection, rather than proceed through. Then the officer would not have a choice but to wave him through, and the action would have also spared the officer any injuries.

 

I'd be interested to hear more about this, but I presume it's a common-law principle that applies to all laws. I also presume that each state makes it's own traffic laws. and perhaps there are 1 or 2 that MIGHT have specific exemptions written in the traffic code. Anyone ?

When cops are directing traffic I try to be ultra careful. When "good samaritans" or construction flag people are directing it's also important to be just as careful.

But I've often wondered: if a cop or a random citizen or flag-guy/gal directs me to do something that violates the lights (if still operating) or other traffic signs. is that legal ? How do I know it's a cop for sure if it's legal ?

What about the time an undercover cop was on my bumper and beeped at me for coming to a full legal stop at a sign, 17 years ago ? Does that give me the right to slide through or get setup for harassment if I do ?

Here in Ontario we have a new law meant to protect emergency workers on a scene. You MUST NOT pass emergency vehicles with lights flashing in the lane ADJACENT to the emerg vehicles. So if there are 3 lanes in one direction and emerg vehicles are in lane 3, you MUST use lane 1 only.

But I still haven't figured out if this is supposed to impact me if there are only 1 or 2 lanes in my direction and 1 lane is taken by emerg. Must I stop until emerg is over or turn around ?

So the 2 times I've experienced this in the last few months, I've slowed down to a super-crawl and look straight at any emerg personnel, especially cops with a look meant to say "Am I allowed and safe to pass?"

 

Hi Michael,

There was no light at the intersection where the Gremlin X driver was coming out of. There is one there today, even though the only road crossing is the entrance/exit to the plant. Its automatic, and goes red for the through road, when taffic on the plant entrance is there.

There was no emergency vehicle involved initially. Just the uniformed officer standing at the crossing poiint between the 4 lanes (east/west for the through road, north/south for the plant entrance). According to the testimony, the police car was in the west bound shoulder to the west of the intersection. The pedestrian officer was directing traffic right out of the plant from the south bound lane to the west bound, while holding the through west bound traffic stopped.

I remember this all due to the emotional state of the Gremlin X driver after he was ruled against. The bailif was assigned to keep track of him until he settled down. I was there to take care of a ticket for driving a relative's car that had expired plate sticker. I was told to get the car over to the sec. of state's office get the sticker paid for and installed, and show up at court with the receipts dated no more than a week from the ticket. And then the ticket would be waived, and a administrative court fee imposed (about 1/3 the cost of the ticket).

With regards to the under-cover cop, its not reasonable for you to know he was a cop. So its not reasonable for you know the beeping was an order from a cop. So, its not reasonable for you to do anything but comply with the normal traffic rules.

 

The speed limit on my street is 25 mph and people often run 40+. Police fill their monthly quota in 1 day when they chose to monitor this street. I have had multiple altercations with drivers speeding when my kids are playing outside with me (pet peeve of mine) and I longed for an answer.
I went as far as petitioning the town to let me construct a speed bump in front my house. I offered to pay for the entire thing...I have construction expirence. That denied me request on the grounds that if I could, they would have to let everyone. BS, I said.

 

We got our first roundabout here a year or so ago and I can't tell you how many times I have met someone going the wrong way around it. I'm not even sure how they do that. I would normally say the roundabout is a hazard but I think it would be more accurate to say that st*pid people are the hazard.

G

 

I've seen videos of that paris roudabout.. old footage of a bumper mounted cam... attached to a Ferrari

 

Zoom in here....

Map not working... but anyhow...

I've dealt with roundabouts here as we have three on small stretch of highway here in Nassau County, FL on Florida A1A, there are two within 1/4 mile of each other at the entrances and exits to Amelia Island Plantation. The resort requested it in lieu of getting traffic lights.

 

Consider the US Nation's Capitol, designed by Frenchman M. Pierre L'Enfant. Look at all those radiant roundabouts.
Washington, D.C.
Perhaps this is why the rest of the country doesn't like them...

 

In Scotland they now have Roud-Abouts with traffic signals??? One time in Germany four cars were involved in rearenders at a circle. I was able to stop OK but theguy behind me rearended me. It was OK tho, he worked for a insurance company so I ended up insuring thru his company at a great savings.

 

They are really only good for light traffic and drivers who are very aware of right of way rules. Drivers taking a left? I' never heard of that except in the UK.

 

Had that happen to me, except I dont have kids, but the ones across the street always play in the street...i told the person that was speeding by to slow down, turns out he lived down the street and he came by to ask me why i was waving my hand at him. I told him to either slow down or he would be visited by San Diego Police..

Well, about 2 days later see the same guy, wave him down, he flips me the bird...that night, my alarm is going off...truck was keyed..needless to say, cops were called, showed up at his door, he admitted he did it and paid for the damage

 

Do not count on cross traffic stopping. Fire engines themselves will stop before entering an intersection against the light or stop sign, and they still get hit frequently. You don't even have the sirens and lights on your vehicle. I'd only do it with the explicit instruction of the emergency personnel. In general, they aren't going to want a civilian to put themselves in harm's way.

Here in Arizona, the law specifically provides that a law enforcement officer overrides a traffic control device. Other people (such as flaggers or private individuals) are more of a grey area. You'd have to be able to explain that following this person's instructions was reasonable.

 

Maybe they think they have to drive on the wrong side because the round-a-bout was obviously imported from a different country and you need to follow their rules for it to work?