Chevy stops Volt production (temporarily ...)

But most of the facts about the volt were known 2 years ago. There is no reason to act all upset that it got 35 miles instead of 40. That is much closer than the phv got this year.

I can't disagree there. I haven't ever owned a gm product. But this is no reason to claim that 38 miles aer in a 2013 volt is a bad car or hurts the environment.

Well the bail out is quite a different topic. Perhaps there needed to be some oversight of these companies that were too big to fail when they were creating the mess. The government surely did not have proper strings attached on the financial or car bailouts. I can't fault the majority of the workers though that were not privy to the poor decisions management and the union were making. In the short term we may be much better off without the unemployment problems in this recession.

All in all the bailout is quite different than the volt. The cost of the volt was quite small compared to the red ink streaming out of europe for gm. We should not blame a well engineered car or employees for past poor management.

 

Thank you.

The post you referenced says:

Loving my Volt! From 10/29/11 to 8/29/12, my Volt went 7633mi on 16.1 gallons of gas + 2043kWh of "green/wind" electricity. Total fuel costs=$187.82, yielding:. 0.21 gallons/100miles, 473 MPG, 100.5MPGe, 158.1 MPG$ (miles per gallon dollar equivalent) or $.0246/mi.​

​

This brings to mind something I'd not thought of when I first was responding to Wolfman: Did the data on the screen account for electricity not generated by the ICE? In other words, did Wolfman "plug-in" during the trip, or was everything simply from the hybrid system? If there were plug-in events, it doesn't change the amount of gasoline used, but it does change the efficiency and cost factor, as he [presumably] would have to have paid for the electricity.​

​

I'll presume your calculations are correct, but I wouldn't know how to make the conversions from total fuel costs per mile to an MPG equivalent using the plug-in electric costs. The hard thing about this, it seems, is getting a real equivalency between gallons and kilowatt hours. (OK, there've probably been dozens of threads just on this topic, but I just don't know. You don't have to take time to educate me on this, as it is not on point for the thread, but a polite arrow or other reference would be appreciated.)​

​

Also (and forgive my lack of info on this), does the Volt require premium gasoline, or is that simply a user's choice?​

 

I guess some people lack the capacity to differentiate between a trip odometer on the main cluster, and charge information on a center stack.

THIS is the screen that resets every charge:



This is the only screen that shows electric consumption. I guess if I want to spend the time, I could go dig the kw/h data out of the myvolt webpage. It just does not matter to me, as the electricity for the trip was free to me, and even when I charge at home, I cannot tell any difference in the electric bill with the car being charged daily.

 

The toxic waste problems were, literally, dumped on the public years ago, but this doesn't differ from most older industrial companies. The difference is that only a small portion of "funds" were set aside to address old GM's environmental liabilities. For the fairly well-known liabilities, old GM "paid" with shares of the new GM. These had to be sold at a later date to provide the financial resources to deal with old GM's liabilities. For all future liabilities, neither new nor old GM will have any continuing or future obligation.

By the way, the public isn't picking up most of the tab for environmental liabilities. It is the other companies and individuals who are left standing at the sites GM has now left behind.

One reason the public (and some private side parties) will be handling some of the toxic waste mess, in my opinion, is that the GM officers and directors used money for things other than responsible environmental management. How it was used and why things other than environmental responsibility took higher priority is a question you are free to put to any of the old GM officers and directors. Good luck getting a response.

Again, this is the same situation as any company which fails or goes through a protected restructuring.

My approval or approbation is meaningless, as this handling of liabilities is part of the country's method of dealing with companies going through financial failure. Shareholders, lenders, dealers, and many others all ended up holding the bag. From my perspective, I didn't buy GM stock and wanted nothing to do with taking on GM's messes to keep it alive. I supported the move with fingers clamped down on my nostrils, while objecting vociferously to the Wall Street bailout.

 

There was likely eletricity used and in his most recent post he said he did not pay for it (most hotels I've asked to charge provide it for free, just like the allow you to use the frige and TV for free). In my computations I include the cost/amount of both. The volt recommends premium but will run on regular.. I know because last october my wife filled it with 85 octane by mistake and it took me a while to burn it off... (it also lowered my CS_MPG (i.e. MPG on ICE) by 5-10%). More importantly though is that if you are going to only fill up every 4-6 months, you want better quality gas. My cost computations included the actual costs paid for both electricity and generally Premium gas . My MPG$ is based is based the actual price per mile I've paid for fuel, then converting that payment to how many MPG I'd have to get, at the local price for regular, to have paid the same mount.

 

Thank you.

I was hoping there would be a more universally-accepted method for determining an MPG-equivalent, but I can see that isn't the case. It probably would be fairly difficult to quantify in a meaningful way. Certainly, we know how many kwh it takes to propel one car versus another car so many miles down the road, and I was just hoping there was a conversion constant to turn it into MPGs. It all is for purposes of trying to get my mind around a concept new to me. This doesn't mean it is bad or wrong, it just will take a new way, on my part, of looking at energy consumption.

 

Reaching middle-market for high-volume sales requires lower cost.

Disregarding that for the sake of flaunting MPG isn't constructive.

How come GM's own target price (no subsidies) of $30,000 is so conveniently forgotten?

 

The normal model is to convert to MPGe..
Miles per gallon gasoline equivalent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But that is all about energy. (I incdlude it my list).

But it all depends on what one wants to emphasise.. MPGe is energy efficency, MPG$ is fuel cost converted to MPG dollars per mile is per cost
MPG is just how much gas was used. All can be useful depending what matters to you.

 

How many sales of phv do you think toyota needs to get middle market high volume sales. I don't think they will get there before the gen IV redesign. How much do you think toyota needs to drop the price? With 78 yen to the dollar do you think they can do that and still build them in japan. I think they need to build the gen IV prius phv here.

No I don't think GM will have huge volumes until the gen II either. No reason you need that to develop the technology.

Can you tell me a productive way to talk about sales of plug in cars. I don't think we can expect f150 volumes from emerging technology. We can expect to use very little gasoline.
August 2012 Dashboard | Hybrid Cars
Home /

Plug-in cars sold in the U.S. (August 2012): 4,630​

Plug-in Take-Rate: 0.36%​

U.S. plug-in electric sales for August 2012​

​

ModelUnitsvs. last monthvs. August 2011CYTDvs. CYTD 2011​

Chevrolet Volt 2,831 53.1% 837.4% 13,497 325.5%​

Prius PHV 1,047 52.2% n/a 6,068 n/a​

Nissan Leaf 685 73.4% -49.7% 4,228 -31.5%​

Mitsubishi i-MiEV 37 12.1% n/a 403 n/a​

Ford Focus Electric 34 -10.5% n/a 169 n/a​

Tesla Model S 20 12.1% n/a 49 n/a​

Honda Fit EV 9 28.6% n/a 16 n/a​

Smart forTwo EV 1 -85.3% n/a 136 54.5%​

BMW Active E 0 100.0% n/a 673 n/a​

All plug-in cars 4,664 53.2% 180.3% 25,239 167.7%​

I think Lutz or whoever said that was high at the time. I don't dwell on what people on drugs said 4 or 5 years ago. AFAIK most of the reasonable estimates were $30K after tax credits, they have a little cost cutting to do in volt 1.5 to get there.

 

It is not forgotten. It has been mentioned to you NUMEROUS times over at GMI, and just like when you are faced with ANY fact that does not help your argument, you try to pretend you've never heard of it - just like the $4500 that I know damn good and well that you'll be deducting in next year's taxes, unless you bought the car late last year, in which you would have deducted it last spring.

Time and time again it has been admitted that the price target was missed, along with the list of reasons why. I'll go over it again, so that you cannot pretend to the locals here in Priuschat that you've never been told.

Lutz wanted to go head to head with the Prius price point. A year after the car began development, the economy tanked. With the tanking of the economy, our currency was seriously devalued on the currency markets when this countries credit rating was downgraded. In addition to this, GM had to undergo a bankruptcy. The latter means that they do NOT have the cash in the bank to float a loss on the Volt, like Toyota was able to do with the MK1 Prius. Development costs went up due in part of the devaluation of the U.S. Dollar. The economic depression means that there are fewer buyers for a product that would have better supported the price point otherwise. The bankruptcy means GM must include all of the R&D of the car up front.

GM was begrudgingly forced to admit that their targets were too aggressive for the new MSRP of the car, and has since backed away from their original numbers. We supporters of the Volt get to enjoy the fact that the car continues to increase its sales virtually every single month. Given it's current production numbers, the car is substantially outselling what the car market wants to compare the Volt to. Yes, we are happy with this small victory.

 

Its your arguments that are not constructive.

Why do you presume GM's target price was without subsidies? Did GM put that in a press release, or were you just wishing it were so.

Target price is generally accepted to be defined as the price to consumer. I paid 30K net, that is really all I care about.


Even if there was, course prices/profit estimates from 2007 don't really hold much weight after the financial crisis.. so even if that was their target, so what? Pricing/value of lots of are now a good bit different than expected in 2007.

Lets put into perspective, Why is the Plug in Prius so expensive? Maybe because quality and PHEV is not yet in volumes needed to be cheap? And the PiP cannot even flaunt MPGs.

With the average vehichle price being about 30K, its in the ball park of middle market price. But clearly that is not enough for you.. you no longer beat up on the technology/efficiency, since its superior to the PHV in so many ways, so now you are back to non-constructive arguments about what you think people said about pricing 5 years ago.

But even your argument about it being priced such that it does not sell into the middle market is failing you, as the Volt for August has, once again, outsold all other PHEV/EV's combined. So even though its more expensive, its take rate was 57% of the total PHEV/EV market. It out sold the cheaper PiP by 270%. It outsold the way cheaper iMev by 7600% and the Ford Focus Electric by a similar (okay those last two are just me being dramatic). The point is that people will pay for quality.

the Volt outsold the Lexus Ct 200h.. Why dont we hear you beating that car up for being too expensive for the main stream?
And of course, hybrids are still just small potatos.. still 3% of the market
GM sold more silverados than all hybrid/PHEV sales combined. Not that I'm suggesting that that is a good thing, just that the whole market is small
It need more quality cars to attract different types of buyers.

 

[/quote]
What clock is ticking? The first Prius came out in 1997 for Japan. The US got a refresh version tailored to the market in 2001. It was pricier than the Corolla and Echo of the time, and remained a low volume seller. The gen2 arrived at dealers in 2004 which is when the model took off in sales. So it took Toyota 6 years to get the Prius to high volume.
[/quote]

The ticking clock is the fiscal cliff coming in 2013. The Volt is a political football and subject to the D.C. crowd looking to knock down the deficit mess. Yep, the Volt in lumped in the middle of this. The federal tax credits, rebates supporting the effort to get the Volts does not bode well. Its' not "if", but "when" the budget axe falls on the Volts' lifeline of tax credits, rebates.

So, the Prius took 6 full years to get to high volume, so what.

What is the main topic of discussion is the Volt. The Volt does not have the luxury of taking 6 years to get to high volume. Government Motors does not have the financial stamina or reserve that Toyota has. That is the difference between a global leader Toyota and a washed up contenderlike the Volt.

Tic toc, tic toc, tic toc.

DBCassidy

 

Naw, its more like you not being able to handle the truth.

DBCassidy

 

What has been the result?

We cannot just accept it and hope for the best. Something must be done.

Setting more realistic targets is the obvious next step. Why is there resistance to that?

 

How much government subsidy did Toyota enjoy during the ramp of the Prius with 110 Yen to the Dollar?

 

I think that's the problem. You'll have to dig to get the total kwh usage. However the gasoline gallon and MPG are tracked and displayed like trophies.

I don't think there is such thing as free electricity. You need to be aware of what it takes to generate electricity upstream.

The 9.8 kWh you consumed is more than 2 month of my household electricity consumption, seriously.

 

I have no proof other than my personal opinion but that IS the price of the volt. They (along with everyone else) bumped it up to match the battery rebate. Once the rebates run out, watch the MSRP fall or stabilize. Again, just my opinion but duh.....

 

really, your electric bill is less than $1 ?

I purchased an EV charging subscription from the local electric utility. $25 for 6 months of unlimited charging from 100% renewable resources, mainly west Texas wind farms.

 

So, what you are saying you like seeing Government Motors abuse the bailout money givened to them. Fine, that is your view point with Government Motors, but you can not, will not try to put yourself in Toyotas' shoes.

Toyota plays its very cool and close to the vest. Toyota can afford to take their time with perfecting the technology of the HSD found in the Prius. You are way off course with Toyota under delivering and lacking in innovations. The opposite is true. Market penetration and increased market share is the name of the game. Toyota has spent years developing this technique and has been grabbing market share from Government Motors. Toyota doesn't need the hype of the Volt - over promised and definately under delivered. The boat was missed on the Volts' price. This is killing Government Motors.

Perhaps this is not such a bad thing?

DBCassidy

 

The Japanese government, gave toyota and honda half the extra manufacturing cost versus a similar car. Its difficult to get exact figures out of MITI, the japanese government organization dispensing the funds. On top of that pre-2006, it was a $2000 tax deduction in america. After that it was up to a $3150 tax credit. States had various additional incentives.

I'm not sure who you think we are, but I don't think you can really go after gm, for what a former employee lutz might have said out of turn. What do you think must be done? It was a wrong answer. Do you think they need to drop the price and lose money? What you should do is just stop with the foolishness. Its rather transparent. You don't have a point so you keep trying to act smug.