C-Max hybrid to get 47mpg both city/hwy

please stop this, it does not involve performance testing, otherwise their mpg would be 15.

 

Now we'll see if the C-Max Hybrid lives up to the hype

 

Perhaps the car will learn and adjust to the driver and return 47 MPG later?

 

These are great numbers that Ford are posting.Normally, the highway mpg number would be lower, 36mpg highway last year. I hope these cars are at least close to the EPA or Consumer Reports will have something to say about that.

He is the 2013 Lincoln MKZ Hybrid, mpg is: 45/45/45
Lincoln MKZ Hybrid rated at 45 mpg, below 47-mpg Fusion Hybrid

 

Haha...just posted this in the Volt vs Prius thread but it seems more suited to this one.

My neighbor just bought a C-Max a month ago and he is yet to crack 40 mpg. However, his mpg is creeping up and the latest tank read 39.8 mpg with odometer at about 1300 miles. He is coming from a Gen II Prius with 52 mpg so he is a bit disappointed so far. Based on the discussion above, I am now starting to suspect that it may not meet or exceed the EPA numbers without serious hypermiling or majority city driving.

Also, the tires are HUGE compared to the Prius Gen II. No wonder it handles well (I drove it for a little bit and it drove very smooth but then that is compared to my 6 year old car). Overall, it looks nicer inside and out than the Gen 2. Compared to Gen 3, I am not sure.

 

Yeah, a 225/50/17 is ginormous compared to the 185/65/15 or even the 195/65/15!

 

Prius FIVE tire is 215/45/17. I think C-MAX hybrid needs 225 width in order to stop reasonably due to the weight. It is about 600 lbs heavier than Prius.

 

I was hoping to find user MPG reports at Fuel Economy, nothing yet, so I started looking at the specs:

	Column 1
0	[th]model[th]pass. vol.[th]lug. vol.[th]total vol[th]EPA combined[tr][td]prius v[td]97 ft{3}[td]34 ft{3}[td]131 ft{3}[td]42 MPG[tr][td]C-MAX[td]100 ft{3}[td]24 ft{3}[td]124 ft{3}[td]47 MPG[tr][td]prius[td]94 ft{3}[td]22 ft{3}[td]116 ft{3}[td]50 MPG

Source: Fuel Economy

I did not realize the EPA classified the C-MAX as a large car. If Toyota (or someone) moved the Prius v, rear seats back about 3", enough to increase the passenger volume by 3 ft{3}, it might be classified as a large car and not just a mid-size wagon. Still, the volume vs MPG looks pretty good.

Sad to say, it will probably take another 6-12 months before we start seeing user mileage reports at the EPA web site. Although initially, these thread reports are not encouraging it is likely that in real life, the C-MAX will fall between the prius and prius v which is not a bad place to be.

Bob Wilson

 

Their in depth reviews include 0 to 30, 0 to 60, 0 to 75, and quarter mile mile times. Along with slalom, skid pad, and brake tests. Where is their SOP on how these tests are performed, and where is it stated that they ensure these tests aren't factored into the mpg? Is there a paper trail to confirm it?

CR testing is just as unaccurate for comparisons, but they spell out their procedure for the public.

Regardless of that, where is the accounting of differences in ambient temperature and climate control use in the article. The EPA added tests to account for them. Presenting their C-max and Prius v results as if the variables were the same is misleading and unprofessional.

 

Does your neighbor rememer what his gen2 started at, was it also new?

I was averaging 58mpg in my gen2 before selling it. When new, I was only in the low to mid forties. It was also spring going into summer then. It's fall now. The wide temperature fluctuations can play havoc in getting a consistent fuel economy.

Winter blend gasoline is also rolling out, if not already at the pump. I see a 2 to 3 mpg drop with it in a non-hybrid.

 

Don't know, I will ask him if he does. I agree that these are initial days for the C-Max. Mileage should improve over time. I just hope that Ford has not been too aggressive in marketing this thing. A hybrid not meeting mpg expectations is the last thing they need.

His wife is driving the gen 2 now. This could be interesting.

 

Fall is the worse time to roll out a high efficiency car. There is learning a new vehicle during a time when conditions aren't the best for fuel economy. Conditions that get worse with winter.

So there are 4 to 6 months of people not doing as expected, and talking about it, that the model has to weather before the economy numbers get to where people want.

 

I thought winter was the worst time to roll out the Prius v. Got mine mid November (2011) and struggled to get up to 38 MPG with two weeks of really cold weather during Nov. + Dec. in Syracuse NY. With summer driving I was able to average 42.5MPG over 10651 miles.

Back to topic.
Just checked Fuelly.com. Two 2013 C-Max owners reporting on a total of 7 fill-ups with just over 2000 miles and getting just under 39MPG. They have interesting details in the comments that they were nice enough to share.
Link here; 2013 Ford C-Max MPG Reports | Fuelly

 

That's not a particularly good line of argument, in my opinion. Freezing temperatures in winter are not universal. A lot of places experience mild winters but scorching summers where people have to use max air conditioning. Winter blend is just one of many variables.

If people are still talking about mpg problems 6 months from now, that would be a red flag irrespective of the conditions.

 

And the Chevrolet Volt was released in December 2010 ...

I think that's part of the reason why some people still think it has 30 miles of EV range and only gets 30 mpg. My personal 30 day average in nicer weather is 47+ miles of EV range and 45+ mpg gas-only hybrid mode.

I suspect the fuelly.com C-MAX numbers will roughly match (perhaps slightly lower than) the EPA estimates over the next year. The basic powertrain design is almost identical to the Toyota hybrid design so I expect similar real-world equivalence.

 

So Ford says not to check fuel economy for the first thousand miles.
That jives with what Prius veterans experienced with new cars. Modern manufacturing means that the break in procedures of the past for a car are no longer needed. That doesn't mean a new car is completely broken in. Manufacturing lube needs to get flushed off parts, the mold release on the tires has to wear off, etc.

More importantly, the drivers need to learn the particulars and feedback of the new vehicle.

The gen2 Prius is rated a little lower than the C-max under the new EPA tests. I grabbed the 2005 MY numbers since it is what I had.
2005 Toyota Prius MPG Reports | Fuelly
I expect a similiar spread of numbers for the C-max in a years time. The aerodynamics and weight might mean less high outliers, but the higher EPA results should mean a higher overall average.

I was hoping to check gen2 numbers when new there, but appears that is from before Fuelly's time.

True. Extreme climate at either end can lead to poor fuel economy for one reason or another. Aside: does the South get a winter blend?

Of course, a dedicated fuel miser, can leave the AC off. Not too much can be done to counter act the effects of heat loss and denser air in winter.

 

Ming Kuang from Ford is the mastermind behind boosting the EPA MPG. He was one of the author in the paper titled "Optimally Controlling Hybrid Electric Vehicles using Path Forecasting".

To reduce fuel consumption, the control of Hybrid Electric Vehicles (HEVs) may be tied to an expected (or to a specified by the driver) traveling route. Utilizing route information, including road characteristics and traffic conditions, the control of the battery charging and discharging can be optimized for a specific route-to-be-traveled. The proliferation of GPS-based navigational systems and digital maps in the modern vehicles facilitates the application of such path dependent control methods for HEVs. Methods to forecast the route to be traveled have been considered in the prior literature, see e.g., and references therein.​

If this programming is in the C-MAX hybrid, it must've known the road characteristics and traffic conditions of the EPA test cycle to ace it.

It also means that the car will learn from owner's usual route to dynamically optimize MPG. The MPG will be lower for the new and unfamiliar routes.

For ex-Prius owners, this car may drive you nuts because you lose control of how the gas engine and battery gets used. The computer will decide when to use them per the previous driving history.

 

If the person turns off "EV+" in the menu screen it does not try to learn your routes. I think I will try with it off as well. You can also reset your lifetime mpg and EV+ is reset as well.

 

Good point. Path prediction seems like a good idea by default but I would hope that any car which does that would have a "traction control off" feature for drivers that know how to drive more optimally.

 

Interesting paper. Thanks!

I found on pp 4617, this quote:

My expectation is efficient driving can make a 5-10% improvement but needs to be married with vehicle optimization such as lubricants, alignment, and tires.

I'm printing the paper for a more detailed read.

Bob Wilson