C-Max hybrid to get 47mpg both city/hwy

i dont understand what are you trying to say. Ford and GM dont ship cars? Toyota and others dont produce locally?

You dont want lighter car?

Almost every Ford and GM vehicle is by far heaviest in the class.

 

Not sure about the current state of shipping, but shipping weight from Japan to US was at a premium compared to shipping from US to Japan. The Prius, for the US market, is manufactured in Japan and shipped ocean freight to the US. While sea bound freight isn't as weight sensitive as air freight, it might be that the ship(s) used for transporting the Prius might be constrained by total weight (displacement) rather than number of vehicles, in which case a weight reduction would let them put more vehicles onto each shipment. Shipping 1100 vehicles versus 1000 vehicles could offset the costs of reducing the weight of 1100 vehicles, maybe not, and maybe only for shipments going through the canal.

I don't know if I want a lighter car, unless it comes with lower operating costs. My lighter bicycle comes with the downside of being a bit more fragile.

 

Don't know about GM, but engineering has nothing to do with it. It is simply a cost benefit analysis choice. The manufacturing and supply chains for the steel parts are already in place. While light weight, aluminum's other properties make it a pain, and thus cost more, to work with. Wanting to keep the C-max price point close to the price of the Prius, Ford elected to skip making different parts for the North American model for this generation.

Both companies know they have to shed the pounds, and are making the investments to improve, such as in carbon fiber. GM has developed(patented?) a new spot welder for aluminum. Aluminum's oxide coating results in more welds failing QC than steel with tradition spot welders. which in raises the cost of working with it. Rivets tend to be the solution to that welding, but they add weight, and make recycling the part problematic. GM solved those problems with their new welder.
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45140

 

Yup, more efficient gas engine. Exhaust heat recovery system, beltless engine and other refinements made the entire car more efficient.

 

Reposting here because I think this is a more suitable place to discuss. This is right out of the manual (p.181):

EV+ Mode

Your vehicle recognizes your frequent destinations and allows for more EV driving as you approach them. For example, when nearing your home it should be easier to stay in electric mode. The EV indicator displays EV+ when this mode is active. Frequent destinations are learned by your vehicle. These locations can be cleared through the information display. The EV+ feature can also be turned off. See the Information Displays chapter for more information.

The EV mode usage changes are based on the following criteria:

• 1/2 mile (1 kilometer) from a familiar destination, your vehicle starts to raise the accelerator pedal based EV mode threshold.
• 1/8 mile (200 meters) from a familiar destination, your vehicle is in full EV mode.
• Infrequent destinations have no increase in EV driving.

Note: Learning frequent destination takes approximately two to four weeks of use.
Note: Familiar destination locations are reset through the information display when the trip information is reset.

 

This got me thinking about driving on more EV on a regular Prius when approaching the destination. The same could be done.

I now wonder how fast the C-Max hybrid warm up the gas engine. Does it run at higher RPM?

 

It makes me wonder whether we can't get softward upgrades that take more of this into consideration. So long as the ICE is warmed up, you'd think we could have more room to dip into the battery -- without being concerned that the later battery charge would take too much out of the ICE's efficiency.

 

Sure, if Toyota licenses the programming and tech from Ford.

 

So the point that Ford weighed more than the Prius was proven to be pointless.

 

How can you come to that conclusion? There's a clear efficiency penalty following depletion.

 

Whoa folks! Let's check the facts and data:

• former Prius owners, initial reports, are not getting EPA performance from the C-MAX
• C-MAX has a different architecture, shares many Prius-like technology, but has a unique, C-MAX set of control laws
• focusing on weight, displacement, or any other single element makes as much engineering sense as the seven blind men describing the elephant

If any of us could rent a C-MAX for a week, we could probably figure out what works and doesn't work with the C-MAX. A series of engineering experiments where we hold as many variables constant and vary only one and we could gain a clue. Heck, just use the ecomodder.com techniques of a roll-down test to approximate the rolling and aerodynamic drag would be more than what we have now.

So let me suggest, we need metrics and experiments. For example, find the individual EPA test results for the C-MAX and a Prius "?" and lets see how they compare. Or be patient and let the early adopters share their results. At least visit a Ford dealer and take a test drive and share the results.

Bob Wilson

 

If Prius III weighs more but gets better mileage than the Prius II then the Ford C-MAX's weighing more than the the Prius III would not be a factor in mileage.

From what we have seen here, the 17" tires on the CMAX would likely be more of a factor in the 47 mpg vs 50 mpg results.

 

Yup, it always boils down to real-world data.

That's why I find it so puzzling when "if" is brought up when it really a matter of "how much". We all know there's a quantity, not an absolute. Hybrids seek out efficiency opportunities that aren't all that obvious.

Numbers help bring the understanding clarity. So, let's have them...

 

Comment like that makes me wonder if you are a Ford fanboy or not. Perhaps, you just like to jab at Toyota on Prius forum (trolling)?

I think they took different approaches. Toyota's strategy was to warm up the gas engine quickly, efficiently and lowest emission with optimal ICE ignition timing and recover the exhaust heat.

Ford's strategy seem to be to recharge the battery during the cold startup and use up the battery charge near destination. It doesn't have the exhaust heat recovery system. It'll be harder on the battery. That's just my conjecture and won't know for sure until a C-Max owner observe and report the warmup process.

Having said that, if Prius has some type of path recognition to learn and optimizes its engine, MPG should increase as well. It'll be less fun to drive since the control is handed over from the driver to the computer.

 

I am a fan of power split hybrid and love how Toyota and Ford implemented it. Path prediction and recognition seem to be a logical step to allow more ICE shutdown time which also translates to higher MPG (if predicted correctly).

Exhaust heat recovery system also enabled more ICE shutdown time so a combination would be ideal.

 

It could help bridge the gap between mild hypermiling and regular driving on a commute. Things like engaging a glide over a bridge after than normal because the system "remembers" it would be great.

 

Maybe PriusChat needs to rename to HybridChat.

I just checked the domain and it seems to be owned by the same Danny Cooper in NC.

 

What have we seen that suggests this to you?

I've been driving on 17" wheels for more than 3 years, yet I've averaged 50 MPG.

Again, that's only anecdotal.

 

+1

Sounds about right. I would say the sample size is small to figure out real world mileage yet. The car might need to be driven differently than a prius to get the most out of it. We also don't have controlled experiments yet.

Yep, I expect ecomodder to get really good results with the car, but that may not be the same as with the car buying public. More power + more fun to drive may drive down fuel economy if people aren't carefull.

I'm not sure where to look that up but we know the epa calculation from the 5 tests
c-max 47/47
prius liftback 51/48
prius v 44/40
Test drives might not be calibrated well for state of charge and engine warm up.
YMMV. I agree completely with your sentiment though.

Both ford and toyota do a warm up routine. I found that with my routes, I actually drive a little out of my way or the toyota warm up just dumps gas on on my quick dash up hills and onto the highway. Ken gave me a way to fake it out, but I didn't want to modify the car. I am guessing from the reports that ford's warm up is less efficient. Toyota does add more hardware egr with ehr that should reduce the warm up hit on short trips, but where I live both gives a big hit.

Remember the ford hybrid and energi have a more powerfull battery with a completely different chemistry. It may actually take less of a toll. Ford looks like it will run the engine harder and warm up in a shorter period of time, saving the charge. If the cars were allowed to pollute more they might have less of a hit.

I as the driver don't get much control in the prius. I have that EV button, but a force charge is a pain in the butt. For my driving it would be nice if I could tell it to charge more, so my engine could be off more in stop and go with airconditioning.