1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

bZ4X - Start Your Impossible

Discussion in 'Toyota Hybrids and EVs' started by john1701a, Apr 12, 2022.

Page 5 of 11
  1. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2013
    3,898
    1,338
    1
    Location:
    NY
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    #81 vvillovv, Apr 19, 2022
  2. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,766
    5,251
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    There is nothing in that article other than speculation. There is no kicking & screaming, only crickets. Tesla's silence and complete absence of detail tells us nothing... no motive.

    You know quite well I was referring to the small/affordable market... vehicles like Corolla... around $25k.
     
    #82 john1701a, Apr 19, 2022
  3. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2013
    3,898
    1,338
    1
    Location:
    NY
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Whatever the modus operandi of the entry level EV future holds, the current leaders of the entry level priced EV in the US is still the Leaf and the Niro, unless I'm missed one or two that are even cheaper.
    Before ( incentives )

    the base Leaf is 27k
    the base Niro is 40k
    the base EV6 is 41k

    for comparison purposes
     
    #83 vvillovv, Apr 19, 2022
    Trollbait likes this.
  4. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2015
    10,985
    8,886
    0
    Location:
    New England
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    2022 Chevy Bolt EV From $31,500
    2022 Chevy Bolt EUV From $33,500
    2022 Hyundai Kona EV From $34,000
    2022 Mazda MX-30 EV From $33,470
    2023 Mini Cooper EV From $33,900
     
    #84 Salamander_King, Apr 19, 2022
    Tideland Prius and Trollbait like this.
  5. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,766
    5,251
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Claims of "kicking & screaming" come down to audience. It's getting difficult to deny that was used as a distraction from addressing the challenges other automakers have faced. Priorities are changing now that the technology is proven. Moving to the next stage is something some are not ready for.

    Tesla falls into the one-hit-wonder category, shifting from S/X to 3/Y. They are large, expensive and overpowered. Absence of diversity is a red-flag for its supposed mission to be an automaker for all.

    GM has been lost, pursuing conquest rather than focusing on their own loyal customers. Their high-end and one-off choices are not a real answer. That long promised "nicely under $30,000" goal remains in the someday category.

    Fortunately, we are seeing Hyundai/Kia and VW on that track to deliver mainstream choice. Unfortunately, their offerings don't focus on "right-size" configurations yet. Emphasis has been on want, rather than need, so far.

    Toyota gets a lot of grief for targeting 250 miles (EPA range estimate) and 150 kW as a useful balance for their own showroom shoppers. That gets twisted into a narrative of "kicking & screaming" when it is really a matter of ignoring noise from enthusiasts. What they deem important is not what critical thinking tells us. It should be obvious how different priorities are.
     
    #85 john1701a, Apr 19, 2022
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,129
    50,045
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    no red flag for a 10 year old auto company, they will likely get to the ev for all first at the rate legacy mfgs are moving.
    when you're selling every car you can make, there's no sense rushing to the finish line
     
    #86 bisco, Apr 19, 2022
    Trollbait and hill like this.
  7. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    20,171
    8,353
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2018 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    Premium
    yes we agree - you were referring to the small/affordable market - of gas burners.
    That's a lot of deflection. No one gives Toyota grief for range and charging speed. Grief was for anti electric car advertising and publicly bashing them for years. That's what is meant by kicking and screaming, having to be dragged into the 2020s. Toyota is welcomed into the fold too all be it a Johnny come lately. They will undoubtedly do just fine, too.
     
    #87 hill, Apr 19, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2022
  8. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,766
    5,251
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Ignoring the principle of business is red flag.

    Wrong. It happened already in China.

    Another business principle ignored.
     
    #88 john1701a, Apr 19, 2022
  9. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,766
    5,251
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    I had no idea you were so deep into the echo-chamber.
     
    #89 john1701a, Apr 19, 2022
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,129
    50,045
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    mind numbing...
     
    #90 bisco, Apr 19, 2022
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,447
    11,760
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    $42,000+ isn't in affordable auto territory. Yes, Toyota has Plans for other BEV models. What is the timeline for the affordable one? What will be the pricing?

    More importantly, how many will Toyota make?

    An affordable EV that is appealing to the masses doesn't make a difference if manufacturing is limited to 30k a year.

    Tesla is production constrained, and already has back orders for the 3 and Y. Despite their stock worth, they don't have the design team size of the legacy automakers. They'll do an affordable car at some point, but are now putting effort into a pick up, which is a far larger segment in the US than affordable car.

    China got to affordable EVs because the government was pushing them, and also because of laxer safety standards. Without the Chinese government, or CARB, we may not have had any plug ins from Toyota at this time. Affordable trim levels of the bZ4X exist because of Canada's EV incentive structure.
     
    #91 Trollbait, Apr 20, 2022
    hill likes this.
  12. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2013
    3,898
    1,338
    1
    Location:
    NY
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    What's all the fussz bout the growth potential of what is it now, what 4%?, of the automotive market? Are we getting close to 5% yet?
    Such a big fuss and bad feelings all round about what should a cud a wood a have or should have happened long ago and still hasn't happened and probably wouldn't happen for a long time, if history is any guide.
    Hello !
     
    #92 vvillovv, Apr 20, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2022
    bisco likes this.
  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,129
    50,045
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    it's the internet :p
     
    #93 bisco, Apr 20, 2022
  14. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2013
    3,898
    1,338
    1
    Location:
    NY
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Like an old floppy ill fitting hat on my head. Almost as much fun as AOL HELL.
     
    #94 vvillovv, Apr 20, 2022
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,447
    11,760
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Plug in growth is doing better than hybrid.
     
    #95 Trollbait, Apr 20, 2022
  16. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2013
    3,898
    1,338
    1
    Location:
    NY
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Yes, lets see if that continues! Or if and or when it hits the Wall.
     
    #96 vvillovv, Apr 20, 2022
  17. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2012
    3,758
    1,677
    0
    Location:
    Sanford, NC
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    Limited
    Toyota investing in 4 ICE engine plants for new design engines. New blocks and heads.
     
    #97 mikefocke, Apr 20, 2022
  18. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,766
    5,251
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    No context... Wasn't that for large & commercial vehicles?
     
    #98 john1701a, Apr 20, 2022
  19. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2012
    3,758
    1,677
    0
    Location:
    Sanford, NC
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    Limited
    The article spoke of 1.8 and 2 and 2.5L. With the new MPG requirements, not surprising. Didn't say what vehicles they were targeted for.
     
    #99 mikefocke, Apr 20, 2022
  20. dbstoo

    dbstoo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    1,365
    731
    0
    Location:
    Near Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2024 Prius Prime
    Model:
    XSE Premium

    It's probably worth looking at the competition. An installed level 2 for Tesla is 2022 EV Charging Stations Cost | Install Level 2 or Tesla ---
    $750 – $2,600 Average Total Cost (Charger + Install) for a Tesla.

    I have no idea how Hill got one installed so cheap. All over the web I see people griping about $1000 or more to put in a tesla charger.
     
    #100 dbstoo, Apr 21, 2022
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 5 of 11