Business Week: Is GM's Green Tech Better Than Toyota's?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ Nov 15 2007, 07:24 PM) [snapback]540280[/snapback]</div>

Yea, that's from US Sales General Manager defending the company from the protesters.

The limitation of the 2-Mode is right out of Lutz.

 

double post

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Nov 14 2007, 09:39 PM) [snapback]539744[/snapback]</div>

Wow what an intersting statement, the problem is how do you know the priceing of the Chevrolet, as its not released on their web site? Hmm intersting... From what I've heared/read they are going to retail for about 48,000. Base model MSRP 34,000... Your 2500.00 calculation seems, off.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mikej777 @ Nov 15 2007, 09:29 PM) [snapback]540410[/snapback]</div>

This can be said about the Highlander too. The base model MSRP is 27k, but $49k for highlander hybrid?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dipper @ Nov 16 2007, 01:45 AM) [snapback]540432[/snapback]</div>

$49,000? That sounds like the limited version with ALL of the extras. The base price of the HiHy is around $34,000. That may seem moot but I'm surprised, around here, at how many people buy the base price Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ Nov 16 2007, 10:24 AM) [snapback]540280[/snapback]</div>

Google™ Toyota's Hino Hybrid (real) Trucks.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/05/19/au...ur-endurance-t/

Australia Post (Oz's near-monopoly postal service) is it's first customer.

Toyota America is contradicting Toyota Japan (Toyota Motor Corporation) and Toyota/Hino Australia. I hope Toyota America doesn’t drag down the rest of Toyota/Hino group.

In theory, Hino'a Hybrid 4.0-litre diesel/electric engine can be refitted in any Toyota vehicles with ~4.0 Litre engine e.g. Toyota LandCruiser Turbo-Diesel.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ Nov 15 2007, 06:06 AM) [snapback]539589[/snapback]</div>

Very US centric point of view and businessweek's stupidity was proven with existence of Toyota's Hino Truck Hybrids in the other parts of the world.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Nov 16 2007, 01:39 PM) [snapback]540374[/snapback]</div>

US Sales General Manager needs to be fired, like the rest of the senior management of Toyota America.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Nov 16 2007, 07:03 AM) [snapback]540452[/snapback]</div>

Same with the Tahoe, except Chevrolet is offering the Hybrid based on the LTZ model. I think they start around 43,000 MSRP without the nav and other goodies. But still its a 7,000 dollar premium. Hopefully they will offer a Hybrid like the Camary and new Escape, where you can bypass all the extras that come with the LTZ package. Personally, if I were in the SUV market I would go with Ford, better milage than the Toyota or Chevy. (Even if I really hate Ford) Seems like they know what their doing a little better in the small SUV market.

 

John, you are not looking at the whole picture either. Isn't the number one vehicle sold in America a Ford Pickup? If not the number one, it is near the top. Plenty of fuel to be saved by making full sized hybrid trucks. Ill bet there is a lot more fuel to be saved with hybrid trucks than with Prii.

Also, it is a lot more likely that the soccer mom will embrace a hybrid truck than Joe Contractor. GM is better off going after a new market than trying to go head to head against Toyota.

Again, you guys are not looking at the big picture either. GM's no. one priority is to make a profit. Oh, and BTW Toyota's number one job is to make a profit too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Winston @ Nov 16 2007, 09:57 AM) [snapback]540549[/snapback]</div>

The worldwide market is much more heavily into cars, not trucks. It's far too easy to forget about those outside of America.

And remember how people used to use trucks for work only, then the car for everything else?

Of course, the ultimate purpose is to use less gas in the first place. Saving is a secondary consideration. It's a difference often not realized but very easy to illustrate. Give a person 400 gallons of gas for the year, telling them that's all they get so make the best use of it with their vehicles. You can bet the farm that the truck will only get used when it is truly needed.

 

Oh boy, *two* clutches to burn up!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Greenkeeper @ Nov 15 2007, 04:38 PM) [snapback]540285[/snapback]</div>

Two objections with this, what are you comparing against for the Prius? (or whatever 45mpg vehicle you're comparing against) The prius doesn't have a comparable non-hybrid model so any direct comparison of savings is really an apples to oranges comparison if that's what you're doing.

Second, your savings here reminds me of government speak when they speak of savings... "Who cares that we're spending twice as much to do the same thing, we're saving more as a result!" If you're like the majority of people driving 20k miles to work and back, both vehicles can do the same thing, so you should compare one vehicle vs another as far as savings as well, so 1000 vs 444 Gallons, 556 gallons of gas savings.

Are you saying this in an insulting way? Just curious, because I think the knee jerk response is... NO FRICKING DUH. But it's a big IF at this moment. Right now, they don't. In the future? Who knows.
I personally am all for GM getting into the mix with their hybrid it totally doesn't do anything for me however, but if it gets them moving down that path then maybe they can end up doing better in the future, the one thing I really don't like is their openly bashing of Toyota as if they really have anything to compare against.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Nov 16 2007, 03:03 AM) [snapback]540452[/snapback]</div>

No dealership will sell you one for $34k now. They are at least $40k the way they are optioned. Good luck ordering one for $34k now.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Greenkeeper @ Nov 15 2007, 05:38 PM) [snapback]540285[/snapback]</div>

Woah there, sport. Built into these figures is your assumption that it's a requirement to keep an SUV and that buyers can't move from one class of vehicle to another.

So let's say you have a 15 MPG gas guzzling SUV and you move to a 20 MPG hybrid gas guzzler. Yes, the net savings is 333 gallons, but let's say you move from a 15 MPG gas guzzler to a normal car. Well, that move alone nets a 666 gallon savings and moving from a 15 MPG gas hog to a Prius? That's an 889 gallon difference!

In short, these calculations are total spin. It would be a more "green" decision to move from an SUV to a non-hybrid car than it would be to move to a hybrid SUV.

Here's a more objective chart:

15MPG = 1333 Gallons
20MPG = 1000 Gallons (333 Gallon Savings)
30mpg = 667 Gallons (666 Gallon Savings)
45mpg = 444 Gallons (889 Gallon Savings)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boulder Bum @ Nov 16 2007, 10:38 AM) [snapback]540659[/snapback]</div>

Lets say... moving from a Prius to public transit, walk, or bike = infinite gallons savings.

He is talking about apple to apple comparison. But if you want to talk about apple to orange comparsion, any car is still BAD.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ Nov 16 2007, 03:16 PM) [snapback]540705[/snapback]</div>

It's a mild hybrid... stop/start and some electric assist while accelerating. Definitely not HSD, and not anything that hasn't been done already.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dipper @ Nov 16 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]540665[/snapback]</div>

The thing is that we're talking about personal transportation. While there are those out there who have legitimate daily needs for larger vehicles (e.g. a service technician who has to haul a large toolchest around everywhere he travels), what we're talking about for the most part in the choice of vehicles for 90% of the population is a vehicle to commute to work and haul the kids around.

In that context, if we're talking about "green" vehicles that satisfy the average family's needs, then you really have to compare cars and SUVs together. It's a disservice not to acknowledge the environmental benefits of downsizing to a car from an SUV, as SUVs are typically chosen not out of necesity, but out of luxury/convenience (for extra room, the ability to move a couch once a year without renting a U Haul, etc).

Thus, the aforementioned gas consumption chart really is apples to apples, certainly moreso than Greenkeeper's post, and it emphasizes an important point; there really isn't a "green" hybrid SUV. That idea is similar to saying "what type of coal fired power plant can we build to help the environment". It's a silly question because if your primary concern is the environment, you don't consider coal, you go for solar, wind, or maybe nuclear.

Similarly, if your primary concern is reducing oil consumption, you don't buy the Yukon XXXXL Hybrid which gets 9 MPG instead of 7, you buy the Honda Civic which gets 40 (or whatever).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 16 2007, 03:22 PM) [snapback]540709[/snapback]</div>

Yukon hybrid is only 22% heavier (~5500lbs vs. 4500lbs0 than 08 HiHy HSD. HiHy has V6 ICE and we've seen V8 HSD in the Lexus LS 600HL.

HSD has proven to scale from vechicles with 1.5L to 5.0L / 4 cylinder to 8 cylinder ICE. I don't see anything technically holding back V8 HSD SUVs / Trucks and beyond.