BT Tech Stiffening plate

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aaf709 @ Mar 29 2007, 08:14 PM) [snapback]414678[/snapback]</div>

Hi aaf and Presto

I am learning. I certainly don't feel anything with certainty. I regret that the conclusions I have stated were seen as insulting. They stand or fall on what they are. Others can duplicate what I have done so no one has to take me at my word.

I think that the bigger insult would be the perpetation of a product which does not do as it claims. Let the facts determine the answer to which insult applies.

The question of the "placebo effect" is the bottom line, of course. If, in the end, there is no logical operative action which can be measured for the BT plate, the placebo effect becomes the only reasonable explaination. But we aren't there, yet.

If an actual, carefully controlled double blind test is not published or if someone does not do John of LB's test with the BTplate, I will purchase a BTplate and do John's test myself. I will then publish the results. I will do other tests and publish those results, also. I fear that the 30 day period for return of a plate, if I am not satisfied with it, would not afford me time enough for a user test. But it is not a question of money for me even though I don't enjoy throwing money away, if that is the result.

In the meantime, it is clear that to operate effectively, the BT plate depends upon its width to capture the torque with a very small travel. I think that this is what Presto was referring to when he suggested that I did not understand how the plate worked. To function that way, the plate would require firm contact over its entire dimension at each end. It is held firmly to the one inch space at each end where it is held with the two pairs of bolts. The rest of the surface it contacts is irregularly shaped stamped sheet metal which is not machined to close tolerances. Further, it would need to duplicate the stiffeness of the plate to resist the stiffness of the plate.

Objectively, it seems very improbable that the BT plate would consistently have the needed contact with that surface. By consistently, I mean that each car will be slightly different since the factory makes no attempt to make that part of the car exactly the same, it is soft sheet metal and, as I said it is not machined to close tolerences. If there is a gap between part of the plate and the sheet metal or if the sheet metal flexes just a tiny fraction of an inch, the function of the BT plate is frustrated.

It is not that I question the properties of the BT plate. I am not is a position to do that. What I am questioning is the ability of the plate to accomplish anything in the environment into which it is installed.

This is not a high tech issue. The truth will show itself.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Mar 27 2007, 06:19 PM) [snapback]413213[/snapback]</div>

Thank you for saying so!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Mar 27 2007, 06:19 PM) [snapback]413213[/snapback]</div>

I think I understand your feelings. And I'm not saying that beliefs can supplant objective information.

The thing is, to me, the search for objective 'truth' implies that one isn't certain of one's own beliefs, and so needs to look to some higher source as a sort of touchstone.

Generally speaking, I'm not sure I'd believe test results provided by the manufacturer (of anything, not just the Plate). So I find myself wondering why you'd give creedence to something from such a biased source.

Honestly, I'm sure Brian could post all sorts of graphs and charts and whatnot (and has, in the past) to prove the Plate's effectiveness. And, even after that, there was still a debate over if the tests have been run correctly, or if they're even measuring right thing in the first place...

The cool thing about one's own beliefs is that they're...well, they're ours. Now, it's important to ask ourselves what those beliefs are founded upon (another story), but I guess what I'm saying is that I tend to be skeptical of authority and so use my own beliefs not as a substitute, but as an additional source of information.

The reality of it is that no one has enough money to really test the thing fully. And even if Brian did, you (and I) would no doubt take the results with a grain of salt...since it's to his advantage to say that it works.

Oh, and please note, I'm not impugning the plate or Brian's veracity; as I said, I've got one and won't be going back to stock.

I'm just using this as an example of how, really, there are lots of different Truths about things like this. And that certainty is --generally speaking-- an illusion.

That's why it's so important, in my opinion, that something feels right to us as individuals...regardless of what the numbers say.

50 years ago, the "Truth" was that paper shopping bags were denuding the forests and plastic was the answer. Now, the "Truth" is that plastic sacks are actually worse...

Truth and submission to authority go hand in hand, IMHO.

 

Yep.. some folks would have "never" bought the airplane or assist in its funding.. as it was obvious it wouldn't work....

Some fool bought some parts and made one!.... way to go Wright brothers!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Mar 30 2007, 04:36 PM) [snapback]415205[/snapback]</div>

Hi Pinto Girl

You have a lot of credibility with me. Although we are not presonally aquainted, I have read your posts which describe the challenges which you faced and overcame. I also admire the way you see the path to a common way between extremes. We need that so badly these days.

Yes, the claims by a vendor need to be taken with a grain of salt. But if the vendor at least describes what he claims the product does and how it does it, one has a starting point to investigate the claims. To just say "it works", and "it would cost bizzillions to prove that" is dodging the issue.

I maintain that proving the mettle of this product is not costly and I think I am in the process of demonstrating that.

So far, the testing I have done has been with tools I have on hand ONLY and done in my home garage. The next step I take may be the purchase of the BT plate so I can test that. The total investment to that point is $165.00. That is all. And if the BT plate turns out to work, I will have it to enjoy. If it doesn't work, that is not the end of the world.

I had to pose several questions just to establish how the plate works. That is the sort of thing I should have been able to determine from the vendor.

Pinto Girl, this is not rocket science. The fact that it is under the car and out of sight makes it kind of a mystery, but when I crawled under there to look at it and the place where it attaches, and I did the test which I reported a few posts back (with photographs), it looks like a slam dunk that the plate can't do much.

But in fairness to the sensibilities of all, I refuse to jump to conclusions firmly without what appear to be solid facts. I want facts which others can duplicate so no one has to take my word.

As much as I don't like taking the word of others blindly, I expect that others won't take my word that way either.

Two concluding thoughts:

1. It is fair to question a product and if a product can not withstand questioning, that is not the fault of the questioner.

2. If a product does not perform the duty which is claimed for it, what ever the reason for that, future customers deserve to know that.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Mar 30 2007, 05:47 PM) [snapback]415241[/snapback]</div>

Fine. No one is putting a gun to your head to force you to get it. Don't buy it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Mar 30 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]415248[/snapback]</div>

LOL!.. yea.. don't buy it!.. I dare you!..........

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Whats the worst that could happen?.. you lose 165.00 bucks?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Mar 30 2007, 05:54 PM) [snapback]415248[/snapback]</div>

That is an interesting twist of the suggestion " If you don't put out the $165.00, it shows that you are just too cheap". What is your point?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 30 2007, 10:19 PM) [snapback]415292[/snapback]</div>

Since you are the only poster on this strand that is consistently, unfailingly unhelpful and belittling, maybe you should just stop reading it if it's bothering you so much?

What Allannde is doing is the only sensible thing I've seen. He's approaching this from as scientific of a standpoint as he can figure out (and you guys are WAY over my head there, BTW). AND he's willing to sacrifice and buy the plate if need be to give an honest, skeptical view of the plate for those of us still not convinced. I haven't heard of anyone else going into the purchase of the plate with the belief that it might NOT work. So if Allannde gets it and says, "Wow, it really does work!", then I would totally believe him.

Of course, I still might not buy it...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Mar 30 2007, 10:35 PM) [snapback]415302[/snapback]</div>

Yep... its amazing how much energy people will spend trying to save getting burned on only 165.00 bucks..... and then most who would want to defame the plate just for the fun of doing it, are too cheap to put thier money where thier mouth is.....

it would be ashamed to have to apologize for making such a big deal out of something that really works!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 30 2007, 11:34 PM) [snapback]415323[/snapback]</div>

again, please see previous post...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Mar 30 2007, 09:32 PM) [snapback]415321[/snapback]</div>

Willing to buy the plate? It looks like he's willing to do anything but purchase the plate!



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 30 2007, 09:34 PM) [snapback]415323[/snapback]</div>

Agreed. It is amazing the amount of energy and time that people will try to figure out something that isn't worth that much. Allaande has been curious about the plate for a really long time. With the amount of time spent trying to figure out if it's worth it or not, an answer could've been reached long long ago if a purchase of the plate was made. Time is money. Allaande, with all the time you spent researching this and all that labour to keep jacking up the car and measuring stuff, you probably woul'dve made enough money at minimum wage to purchase one.... a few times. If you feel that the plate can't work for you, then that's fine, move along.

Stop concluding the plate will not work. You don't have the plate You are working on your own assumptions. How can you be so certain with a few static tests? There are many factors at work when it comes to handling characteristics. Do you think you can test all of them?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Mar 30 2007, 08:32 PM) [snapback]415321[/snapback]</div>

To perform a scientific test, one need to have engineering or technical knowledge and a proper method. With all due respect, Allannde seems to have neither.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Mar 30 2007, 09:36 PM) [snapback]415361[/snapback]</div>

Hello IsrAmeriPrius

Thank you for expressing respect. It is a polite thing to do.

When you take something out of context like that you can change the original meaning. I am not making an evaluation that would occur in a scientific laboratory. I am making an evaluation as would be made by an informed customer. I am qualified to do that. I might be using scientific like methods, but that is loose description at best.

Tyrin had a point which you either ignore or missed. I thought it interesting to think about the fact that this thread is viewed by both supporters and detractors of the BT plate. I don't think of myself as either a supporter or a detractor. I think of myself as a doubter which I think is healthy. It might be a good idea to think of people like me as allies rather than enemies. We are either one just by your thinking.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Mar 31 2007, 03:14 AM) [snapback]415401[/snapback]</div>

Allannde.. I respect your skepticism only if you honestly don't insult the intelligence of literally "hundreds" of previous buyers who are elated with the plate and try and rather judge with nothing but your imagination to counter with?

Is that "polite"? to all of us?

It would be one thing if you actually tried the plate and had issues...... but then we bring in anther point that you really should see as a credibible issue to consider....

If you "really" feel so many are merey preprogrammed into liking the plate before they buy it and so when they do they find a way somehow in thier brain to like it.... don't you think that even though to do eleborate test that you will "interpret" the findings of those test and you will "conduct" the procudure of those test so that they will favor what you think you already know?

I give you the benifit of a doubt and credit to say if you finally spent the money that in order to save face, that surely you would not "skew" the test in the doubters favor, but my concern is the methodology, detail for error, interpretation of such tests, and honesting in challenging findings that confirm you doubts?

Those that go into something thinking that it is not going to work IMO can never be pleased with anything.

I'm not sure what the big issue is...the darn thing is 165.00!!! NOT 1650.00!!

Geeezz....

I'm sure if you try hard enough you can prove anything you want... but let me ask you something????

If you as representing a literal handful of people can doubt the findings of hundreds... do you think you could sway the beliefs of hundreds to the findings of the one? "yourself?"

I'm gonna say no..... No matter how detailed and perfect you "say" your test was performed and even if you provide all the facts and numbers.. I will have a perfect right to be totally skeptical and doubt your trustworthiness or at least "competence" in performing such test.... especially when your already bent and cling to a line of reasoning that says it doesn't.

The problem with test are that.. if we try enough, we can get them to say anything we want.....

Why do you think we keep having tests by certified disinterested parties come up conflicting with prior findings by other certified disinterested parties and testers about drugs, medical findings of diseases, human states of mind, cars, electronics, you name it...... test cannot be trusted....

Even when the tester is totally honest, disinterested and competent to todays standards... they are still very fallible due to changing conditions of perception and environment..

I recommend if you don' t like the plate before you buy it... not to buy it and don't bitch about it either.

If you really want to be honest and think the plate may work... then buy it and put it on and see what you think.

I don't know why people think they need to create a tests to confirm or deny what hundreds already know......

Do you really expect to be the first to create a test that could "deny" the findings of so many others before you?
Second, do you really think anybody is going to believe you?.... only those like yourself who have been afraid to buy maybe... but you will not sway those who already own the plate and know it works.

 

The fact is that there is no scientific reason for the plate to work, and yet it does. The explanation is that the milled symbols on the back and front of the plate are duplicates of ancient Runes, and bear the imprint of Satan. Brian is in league with the Devil. All of you who use the plate or advocate its use are doomed to eternal damnation!

Also, Columbus had a 5th ship, the Santa Clara. All hands were lost when it sailed over the edge.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(syclone @ Mar 31 2007, 10:47 AM) [snapback]415457[/snapback]</div>

LOL!... Runnin with the Devil!!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 31 2007, 10:07 AM) [snapback]415521[/snapback]</div>

That was a funny exchange with syclone. Pardon me for not beiing experienced with Internet slang.

Windstrings, I was not born yesterday. As a skeptic myself, I understand your skepticsm.

I am not bent on proving that the BT plate is fake. I really want to know if it works and I just don't blindly take the word of others whose experience is out of the reach of my reality.

And I promise to say PUBLICLY that my prelimiary conclusions are wrong, if that turns out to be the case.

You or anyone else will be able to do what I did. You don't need to take my word for anything. You can test what I conclude for yourself and see with your own eyes what I see.

If I was betting my all on persuading any who are committed to the BT plate, I would need to prepare for a bleak future. I am not in the persuading business. It is my purpose to put information out there for any who choose to use it. I understand the reality that no one is persuaded against their will.

Humor me. If this is what it takes for me to understand it, that serves one purpose. Mine. But it just might be valuable for the other doubters out there. What harm is there in that? You might even learn something from it. Who knows?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Mar 31 2007, 02:52 PM) [snapback]415590[/snapback]</div>

I hope you don't have to understand love and many other things before you allow yourself to participate in them.. or your life will be quite boring limited to the rational facilities of your limited mind.

that was not an insult.. all of our minds are limited and it misses 'allot".

How about take your car out for an aggressive spin, put the plate on "after buying it" and go the same course and try to drive the same way.. log your impressions...

Now continue to use your car as normal over the next week and see if you notice anything at all...

First of all.. I didn't notice anything with just "granny" driving.... it does take something that will stress the suspension before you can "test" the suspension right.. That sounds reasonable eh?

Then if you want do whatever test you want to see if it confirms or denys your findings you did just by feel.

As long as you realize that for most folks "seeing is believing".... don't be offended if your test are not accepted unless they confirm what others feel they already know.

Its hard to take someone elses test as fact over your own experience and feelings.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 31 2007, 01:11 PM) [snapback]415618[/snapback]</div>

Hi windstrings

Thank you for your helpful thoughts.

Frankly, what motivates me is not the approval or disapproval of others but the fact that I enjoy learning and a challange. The challenge to me here is the persistent sense of mystery about the BT plate. So many people have put forth theories about what it does or should do and have been run off as "unbelievers" that I concluded that the time has come for a rational evaluation of what this thing is. There has been so much energy spent on the subject which seems to have been a waste because it goes nowhere.

So it seemed like a challenge which I could take on to get to the core of the issue. I purposely have approached it with simple tools to show that valuable information was possible to get that way.

You referred to Orville and Wibur Wright. You know that they were in the business of making bicycles. With the skills and tools in their shop, they built the first working airplane. They had no engineering degrees. The sky did not know the difference. It still allowed them to fly.

The BT plate is not magic. The spring in a windup watch, even though much smaller, is as sophisticated. I predict that you will be interested in the results of this as will many others. I also predict that not a single person will be convinced of anything against their will. I am old fashioned. I still believe that the truth is the best policy and let the chips fall where they will. An ounce of trust is worth a ton of spin, any day. So I play it straight. Period.


How long does it take to get a BT plate?