BT Tech Stiffening plate

Let's see, who should I believe...

The engineer who works for Toyota (not for the dealership) that we've met personally, who's been very knowledgeable during the Q&A session, also the same engineer who fix one of our member’s Prius with hybrid ECU problem in the past.

OR

Guys on the internet who said something like, "it just works. I can feel it! I dare you to buy it, if not, you are cheap! Toyota engineer? What does he know about the Prius? He doesn't know what he's talking about!"

Wow... what a tough choice! :lol: :lol:

All joking aside, the facts are reported. Choose your own to believe in.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Apr 10 2007, 11:04 PM) [snapback]421342[/snapback]</div>

Did I miss something? What facts?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Apr 11 2007, 01:04 AM) [snapback]421342[/snapback]</div>

Scott, I don't know how old you are, but I have earnestly learned the many reports of the laypeople outweigh the "one" of the expert.
Experts are "sorry to say" often clueless wonders with no real talent or instinct for the field by which they studied.

20 years ago I built a hydroelectric system and first learned this miserable fact.
I would run into hitches and called and talked to electrical engineers at Bonnieville Dam, The Electric Company that supplied the closest grid power and spoke with engineers there, I called auto parts people, electrical geeks at supply houses... I was grasping at straws as back then there was not the internet info of micro hydroelectric systems like there is now... I ended up figuring these things out myself merely with the knowledge of Ohms law from a 13.00 electronic correspondence course I bought through the mail. I have no degree in that field at all.... just a knack.

All the "experts" could tell me were things pertaining to what they do "every day", it was almost like they had a lobotomy and forgot any and everything they were ever taught in school that should have given them some deduction reasoning skills to tackle my issues I was presenting?

Call me nieve, call you nieve, but I don't trust "one" person, especially when his heart was not in it to find out... he didn't even give it a second glance.

If you want to trust this guy over all the reports, you have the right to do that... just don't imply people who don't are foolish, as you may be the foolish one here!

Thats why we have Consumer reports and reviews...... thats why those magazines are so popular and thats why almost "any" product you go to buy online will have them.
The public has found out that consumer reports are more valuable than some expert who really has not lived nor applied himself personally to the product or has been bought off and wined and dined by the company reps.

Lay people have no reason to lie "normally"... they only want to share thier opinion. As uninformed and unskilled as the consumer may be, they reflect the final "pudding taste test" after all the cooks have had thier say. Some are good judges, others are pathetic, but after hearing thier say, you have to be the final judge.

If you can't "judge" for yourself or are uncomfortable doing so, and need someone else to tell you whats good and whats bad, thats ok.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Presto @ Apr 10 2007, 10:39 PM) [snapback]421285[/snapback]</div>

I did check and you're completely wrong.

1. You started spouting rudely about two PAGES before Allannde even entered the fray. Windstrings started before Allannde spoke as well.

2. Allande said the following things (roughly)
- The emporer has no clothes
- He himself would probably feel the plate worked, but wouldn't trust his own feeling

Where is the insult? Even the emporer comment was made in response to the "everyone says it works so it must work" comments. He did not initiate that dialogue, but was trying to point out why his position was valid. He also NEVER used the word Placebo. You're wrong, wrong, wrong, and you can't stop defending your plate for five seconds to worry about facts. You're assuming some vast conspiracy against your plate instead of LETTING PEOPLE SPEAK THEIR HONEST THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS WITHOUT RETALIATION.

This discussion is VERY different than the basic pro-Prius discussion, because as a PC group, WE DO NOT AGREE, and that is normal, and the way it will always be. Deal with it.

I'm glad to see Brian commenting again. I can understand his position about the expense of testing and wanting to rely on positive comments. But if that's the position, then you can expect that this conversation WILL NEVER END. Even if all of us here get tired of it, someone else will bring it up again. That's the price of no testing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 11 2007, 05:56 AM) [snapback]421410[/snapback]</div>

K.. show me where. Let's put it into context. This thread has been going on a long long time. Likely it was a long time, non plate-owning, opponent that I would've been responding to... or perhaps you are reading too deep again and assuming.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 11 2007, 05:56 AM) [snapback]421410[/snapback]</div>

Oh... and i'm the one assuming, here? There is no vast conspiracy. It's a few people. The people that are spoken against have no plate and have no right to offer an opinion as fact, that it doesn't work. I think you're still reading what you want to read.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 11 2007, 04:56 AM) [snapback]421410[/snapback]</div>

I really don't worry about no testing as we won't get everyone to accept it NO MATTER WHO TESTS. If an independent company did a test with instruments along a slalom course at varying speeds which showed positive results, there would be those who said the test isn't showing Real World figures (like the EPA and gas mileage) so the plate really doesn't work. If the test showed poor (or unimpressive) results, the owners of the plate would question the company that made the test.

 

<quote:
BT Plate: The engineer was not familiar with the plate and questioned the effectiveness. A Prius was put on the lift for him to see its installation. His immediate comment was that the mounting location on non-structural part of the car will not make any difference to the handling. IF the plate was mounted to the structural rails that are about half foot away from each side of the BT plate mounting points, then it MIGHT make a difference. The Toyota Technical Adviser also stated that the OEM plate was there just to make a connection. If the car is driven without the OEM plate, it will not matter. This is a hotly contested matter on PriusChat, and it was good to get their input. quote>


THIS was the big revelation? An engineer who admits unfamiliarity with the plate but proceeds to question its effectiveness? So are we to believe that Toyota decided to install this plate, not just on the Prius, but on other models as well, for no reason at all (other than to "make a connection", whatever that means). So this engineer (whom I see also apparently waffled on the oil overfill question as well) knows more about suspension and frame design than the engineers who designed the Prius to include this plate? Does this mean those who question the effectiveness of the BT plate will now not only not buy one, but will remove the stock plate from their Prius since it "will not matter"?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DelerPrius @ Apr 11 2007, 11:44 AM) [snapback]421503[/snapback]</div>

My vote is neither.... those who are paralysed with fear usually don't do anything.. they just let life happen to them.... they take the "if it ain't broke don't fix it attitude" and even if it is broke, they just scratch thier head and move on.



Then they gripe about the way everybody else does things and blame anybody but themselves for how terrible it is, which incites their fear even more and reinforces the notion to not move.... see the cycle?



BTW.. welcome to the confusion! :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Presto @ Apr 11 2007, 10:46 AM) [snapback]421455[/snapback]</div>

OK, here you go.

Post #1 Bethlehem Prius

“Maybe it is the total placebo effect but I think it is worth it. Well that is my 2 cents.â€
(owner and supporter of the plate)

Post #2 syclone

“Be careful! There are some PriusChat denizens that might put a contract out on you for praising the BT Plate. Of course, none of them actually own a BT Plate.â€

So owners are already saying that it’s not ok to disagree on the workings of the plate. Gotta shut down that discussion before it starts.

Post #87 DaveLeePrius

“I don't believe the hype. Toyota engineers are a lot smarter than the BT Tech people would make you think they are. There are reasons that the stock plate is like it is, putting a stiffer plate in there will transfer loads to other parts of the chassis which could in time do damage to the car. If you want a sporty car, don't buy the Prius, get the Honda Civic Hybrid. I for one won't waste $170 plus shipping on a plate for my car. There has never been any data published that proves the plate improves handling either, it's all word of mouth. The power of suggestion is pretty strong, and if people say "Hey wow the car handles better" other people are liable to believe it even if they don't notice anything.â€

So Dave did suggest the placebo effect. But he stated it completely as his own opinion. This is not an insult. He is entitled to that opinion.

Post #88 Presto

“This is well past the point of hype. Are we to think that everyone who feels a difference (almost every purchaser of the plate) is getting the placebo affect?â€

You are the second poster to use the words placebo effect. Both were supporters of the plate. And yes, mass groups of people have been known to succumb to this effect in many other situations. So whatever you think, it is possible, AND THIS IS NOT AN INSULT, it is an opinion, big difference.

Post #97 John in LB

“Come on Bill... I do believe the BT Tech plate will make some difference in stiffening the body. But coming out of the parking lot? You are not driving a wet noodle... I have to believe that's the Placebo effect you are feelingâ€

He doesn’t say the plate is all placebo effect, just that it is unlikely to be felt turning out of a parking lot. Seems like a reasonable assertion to me.

Post #100 Allannde

“My purpose is not to prove the BT plate is a bad thing. It is to find the truth.â€

Sounds pretty clear to me. So far to this point he has tried several tests suggested by others, and made no conclusions.

Post #108 BT Tech

“With all due respect Allannde you are saying things that are not quite true. I have explained to this forum from day 1 about the amount of testing that was done on this product before it was ever offered for sale. I also mentioned how many revisions and programming changes that we made to provide the best possible quality product. I even posted a FEA (Finite Element Analysis) showing the structural properties of our plate compared with the OEM plate. Show me one other company that sells a product as inexpensively as this one that does this.â€

Yes, you can find these old old postings of Brian’s if you search under his screen name. It still doesn’t explain why he doesn’t collect this info in one place where we can all easily access it.

Post #110 Allannde

“I have two questions.

1. If under maximum torsion which the body will express, there is no measureable displacement of the two ends of the mounting of the plate with no plate present, what function does the plate perform?

2. If it is your assertion that the plate performs some other function, what is that function?â€

These questions were never answered by Brian. Totally ignored, like most of the questions that come up here. With the exception of post 108, he only responds to positive comments, never to questions.

Post #114 Windstrings begins his tirade against unnamed people who are too lazy or cheap to buy the plate. It’s too long to copy here.

Post #117 Presto

“You've conducted a test where the addition of the stock plate made no difference to the deflection measurements. Your statement is correct in that the stock plate doesn't do anything, but what does that have to do with the BT plate being ineffective? That is what I think you are trying to imply. Please correct me, if I'm wrong.â€

Here’s where you started your fallible argument. Allannde’s test (while possibly flawed), showed NO MOVEMENT with or without any plate. On that particular test, the BT plate is guaranteed to have identical results to no plate. If that were really the case while traveling, then the BT plate could not have any effect. That is his postulation. You can’t accept his position that the stock plate does nothing then turn around and say, but the BT plate will stop the nonexistent movement!

Post #120 IsrAmeriPrius

“Come on, based on everything that you have written on this subject, you never had any intention of buying Brian's product. You are not a potential customer, you are a persistent antagonizer and naysayer.â€

This was proved wrong. Allannde has one on order. He will post back when he has tried it.

Post #124 Bill Merchant

“I believe you don't have an open mind. I believe you have a tight wallet. I believe you will never accept the experience of others as valid.

I suppose you could take your placebo and use it as a suppository.â€

Yet another mention of the Placebo effect by a BT plate owner and supporter. Not to mention it’s insulting.

Post #126 John in LB

“Ok... now, we have done it - All you have proven here is the Placebo effect.... If your car is standing still - I don't care what the BT plate looks like - It would have ZERO effect on your swaying car.

Bill, I was not impugning your veracity - I totally believe you felt something. I just doubt that it was a dramatic marvel of engineering that you felt.

For all (not just Bill): The discussion seems to have turned ugly today - and that certainly was not the intent. All I was interested in was some numbers to back up the claim; and I did question the value proposition of the BT plate.

The topic is right for the FORUM. It is completely appropriate to pursue it here. And that is a fact that is not in dispute here.

I would suggest to all that we stay on topic and keep the conversation in a positive and constructive manner - and have a little fun too.â€

John politely responds, and again makes a valid assertion that the plate probably can’t be felt at a standstill. He suggests we stay on topic and be positive. That hasn’t happened.

Post #127 syclone

“It's one thing - doubting that the BT Plate is effective. It's anybody's right to have doubts. It's quite another thing to try to rationalize not purchasing the product by claiming "placebo effect". This inherently demeaning to those who have purchased the product and are satisfied with its performance.â€

Syclone is back with another insulting post in which he claims to have been demeaned, citing John’s honest, polite, and reasonable argument that feeling the plate at a standstill is probably placebo.

Post #129 syclone

“Reading the instructions takes about as much time as swapping the plate. The doubters seem to try and focus on any explanation other than the plate really works and that's why people aren't sending them back. I know if I installed the plate and it didn't work it would be on its way back pretty quickly.

The level of denial here is rapidly approaching the "dogma" level. Referring back to my first post, maybe all you Flat Earth guys should write a letter to the Vatican and see about forming a branch of the Tomas De Torquemada Society. You could start your own forum and take on other controversial subjects like: Is the Earth round?, Does the Earth really revolve around the Sun? Was the Universe created 6000 years ago? Is Elvis really dead?â€

This proves my point, and I think I’ve gone through far enough. There is way more indignation by plate owners than is warranted by the few posts in which people actually dared to politely disagree with them. So get off your high horse and let discussion happen freely. Express your point politely, back it up, or shut up. That's how adults have conversations.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 11 2007, 11:59 AM) [snapback]421514[/snapback]</div>

Here's the "they" conspiracy again. Find it, cite it. You can't.

Again, you're totally wrong. Everyone has a right to an opinion, whether or not they own the plate. If you don't like it, leave the discussion. I want to hear those opinions, not people acting rude and indignant.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 11 2007, 12:21 PM) [snapback]421530[/snapback]</div>

Lets talk about rights.. you have a right to be born.... does that give you the right to kill another who was born of their own right?



You have a "right" to have an opinion, but you don't have a "right" for that opinion to be right!.. comprende?



Why is your "right" more noble than mine?.. when mine is based on real experience and yours is based on nothing.



I have more proof that it works than you have that it doesn't?



and if its not right, you can't lord it over another who has grounds for thier "opinion" because they actually own and are using the plate!



Reality is not as it is according to whats in your head.



If you want to live in an imaginary world where nothing is real.. thats also your "right"... it doesn't mean I have to, nor does it mean your imaginary reality superceeds mine....



Just don't buy it and be happy.. whats so hard about that?



You guys remind me of those who don't believe in God, but spend all their time trying to convince others he's not real!... LOL! It something is not real.. why are you worrying about it?.. why does it bug you?

What do you have vested thats so valuable?

 

I just want to add my two cents. I recently put on the plate and have to admit that the improvements are modest at best, but that being said definitely noticable. To that end, after I put on the plate my wife and I drove from NY to Fl, without any prompting and not even knowing I had bought the plate let alone put it on the car, my wife (who is not a paragon of automotive knowledge nor generally could care less about handling as long as the car starts) out of the blue states that the car feels "better". I ask what she means and she states that it just feels smoother and does not seem to be buffetted as much by trucks passing us.
I than explain that I purchased and put the plate on the car, smug in the knowledge that she will not break my b-lls about spending money on the plate. Thanks Brian, another happy customer.

By the way, knowing that you used to recommend 23 or 24 lbs of torque and now recommends 17 lbs of torque, I split the difference at 20.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 11 2007, 01:50 PM) [snapback]421551[/snapback]</div>

whatever that has to do with the topic...

When did I say I was right? I haven't even expressed a decided opinion, except that I want to hear all sides.

I repeat, I want to hear all sides. Always have. So stop whining about the other side and present your logic and reasoning.

I have no proof of either, and neither do you, unless proof means something different to you...

Show me who is lording it? YOU'RE MAKING UP THE CONSPIRACY AGAIN

I hope you realize how little sense you make...

I could ask you the exact same question. Why are you so vested in convincing everyone else of your reality? You've tried a lot harder than anyone else I have seen on this thread.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusDreamer @ Apr 11 2007, 02:11 PM) [snapback]421562[/snapback]</div>

This is the kind of post I want to hear more. Specific, detailed reasons for/against the plate. Thank you for an honest, not overly gushing post. I can believe in your experience.

...Although I'd still love to see some tests...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 11 2007, 10:21 AM) [snapback]421530[/snapback]</div>

Umm.. wasn't the point supposed to prove people like, me, are needlessly attacking all questions of the plate? All I see are responses to the people that throw out 'placebo', and the ones that say it can't work, even though they didn't try it. I'm not going after people just because they are curious about the plate. When they put forth an uneducated opinion on why the plate can't work, that's when I step in. I still don't see why you're still stuck in this circle, so i'll explain it once again, The only people that get flak are the people that conclude that it can't work, and they haven't tried it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 11 2007, 10:21 AM) [snapback]421530[/snapback]</div>

Everyone does have a right to their own opinion, there's no denying that. When opinion is put forth as fact, that's when people get riled up. For the doubters, they have no facts, only a skewed opinion.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Presto @ Apr 11 2007, 03:31 PM) [snapback]421610[/snapback]</div>

1. The opinions were never put forward as fact, by anyone on this thread. That is your imagined conspiracy.

2. I only went through about page 7 of 17. The next ten pages are you and WS continuing to harp on these issues, long after John, Allan, and Dave have left the discussion.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 11 2007, 09:21 AM) [snapback]421530[/snapback]</div>

My comment was correct at the time that I wrote it. Allannde did not order the BT Plate until days or weeks later. As far as I am concerned, he may have done so just to prove me wrong after the fact and spite those who disagree with him on this subject.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Apr 11 2007, 02:38 PM) [snapback]421666[/snapback]</div>

You only went to page 7, and the next ten pages are just me and RS 'harping' about the plate? Here you go assuming again. Just give it up, already. The only reason we continue on about the issues is because there is continued opposition. This discussion is about the plate, not about you unsuccessfully trying to prove me wrong. You had your time to try to step up. Let's get back on topic here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Apr 11 2007, 04:43 PM) [snapback]421668[/snapback]</div>

Isn't that what everyone told him to do? Now you're upset he did it?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Presto @ Apr 11 2007, 05:25 PM) [snapback]421680[/snapback]</div>

No assumption. I read it. Just don't feel like posting another mile long post. You can go back and read it yourself if you don't believe me, but its there.

Besides, getting back on topic? Thats what I've been asking for! Talk about the plate, NOT the people who hurt your feelings.

 

Brain,
Do you have any comment regarding the statement that the Toyota engineer made about the mounting point of the plate? The reasons I asked is because I've talk to couple other PC members. And they said their test show that the chassis flex is not affected by having the plate installed or not. These two independent sources come to the same conclusion, the plate is mounted on non-structural part of the car.

If there's more creditable source than the Toyota engineer's, I think we all would love to see that. If there's any test that show positive result of the BT plate, we would love to bring that up in our next meeting. I understand that 99.99% of BT plate users have positive feelings. But feelings are hard to quantify. Some commented that the engineer didn't even drive the Prius with the BT plate on. We can arrange a test drive next time, since some of our members have the BT plate installed. If we can show Toyota that this plate makes a positive change to the car's handling, we might be able to have them make something like this for the next Prius! The engineer told us that thousands of production changes are made due to customer feedbacks.

Let's have an open, adult discussion without personal insults and suppression.