BT Stiffening Plate Review

I also find that you have joined several others here who put words into other's mouths, and knock down the straw-man you invented.

I did not demand sophisticated tests and lots of data. I merely asked if there had been analysis or even an explanation of what specific bending or other structural problem the Prius has, and how this particular design of plate addresses that problem. I read every post in several threads, going back prior to the crash that removed much of it. There are currently 500 posts in several threads and I have read them all. Despite this, I have not found such a specific explanation of how the suspension geometry would be affected by added stiffness in that particular area. I note that many state that such an explanation exists, but it does not. You say that you did such analysis for another vehicle, but of course that does not necessarily mean the Prius behaves the same way.

I am not demanding tests. I am not claiming that it does not work. I am not demanding "absolute proof." I am not demanding so much as one penny be spent.

Your speculation about how a doubter would or would not react to a test you envision only serves to debate the character you invent, not the actual posters here. It is very disingenuous to presume (or to use your word, "guarantee") how your doubters would react to a hypothetical situation you contrive. It means you are debating a hypothetical person you invent, not a real poster here. It is a hollow victory, and does nothing to engender trust.

 

Hello Phil and thanks for your comments below... I have mentioned many times before that I personally do not mind intelligent meaningful dialogue and I welcome such posts with open arms. The problem is that some of the people that are questioning or degrading our product do not post in such a manner and use derogatory terms and throw around the term "placebo effect" without ever seeing our stiffening plate or experiencing it first hand.

As far as other posters making insulting or inappropriate comments I am not a moderator here and I have absolutely no control over what is or is not posted. I have always said that I prefer civil non confrontational exchanges here but I must say that at times this can be hard if not impossible to do.

I treat all of my customers with respect and I would expect the same in return. In all honesty Phil, we have never had a disappointed customer yet that purchased a stiffening plate but if we did I can assure you that he would be treated with the same respect as everyone else.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Nov 9 2006, 12:52 AM) [snapback]346050[/snapback]</div>

 

"Anyone who "demands" a test be done needs to get in touch with reality."

I made no such demand, so I'm not concerned with my grip on reality. Other's, I have my doubts.


Buy the plate or go away.. just like any store or any product.

Why must I go away from this forum just because I do not buy a product? I wasn't aware of any site rule that required a purchase to participate.


Why do you assume me and brian are related at all.. do we sound alike?

I do not assume you are related, I simply stated that you act as if you have appointed yourself his guardian here. It is the relation that you have created here that is your presumption, not mine. I merely observe the overprotective and antagonistically defensive posture you choose to repeatedly take on his behalf.


Do you want him to spank my pants like a bad boy?

Such an idea had not occurred to me. But if that's what you want to do, I pass no judgement on consentual acts between adults.

 

Come on now Phil.. Did you in fact read all of the posts in this thread? If you did how can you possibly say that the non-believers would not question the validity of ANY tests done on our product!! ???

Yes, in my post I “conceived†a hypothetical person but if you don't believe for a second that what I stated would indeed occur than we obviously comprehended what we read in all of these posts differently...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Nov 9 2006, 01:08 AM) [snapback]346057[/snapback]</div>

 

In order to expedite the flow of information in this thread and conserve bandwidth I have devised the following table of actual and hypothetical test results which should be referred to by number in future posts.

1. The BT plate has changed my life - caused a spiritual reawakening, cured my baldness and improved my sex life.

2. The BT plate has turned my Prius into a tiger. I take turns with abandon and go off-road without a thought.

3. The BT plate provides a performance boost observable by anyone but hopeless cynics and trouble makers.

4. The BT plate passed my double blind test, but results were lost when the test observer wandered onto the test track and I didn't see him due to all the blindfolds.

5. The BT plate reduced the shear stress on my Prius wheel nuts by 5.3 lbf/m 2 at STP while maintaining tensile strength eccentricity of 1.02% relative to the OEM parameters.

6. You changed what?

7. The BT plate is nicely machined bauble with no redeeming social value.

8. The BT plate is a sham and hoax. In fact, Toyota should be sued for using their stiffener.

The management thanks you for your consideration.

 

Well Done Ron with the exception of the scam and hoax part!!



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RonH @ Nov 9 2006, 01:33 AM) [snapback]346073[/snapback]</div>

 

"Come on now Phil.. Did you in fact read all of the posts in this thread?"

Yes, every damned one of them. And those in other related threads also.


"If you did how can you possibly say that the non-believers would not question the validity of ANY tests done on our product!! ???"

When you don't qualify "non-believers" you insinuate that all non-believers would react as you deacribe, a characterization which I deny for myself.


"Yes, in my post I “conceived†a hypothetical person but if you don't believe for a second that what I stated would indeed occur than we obviously comprehended what we read in all of these posts differently..."

I would never personally react that way, and as I am the most recent and frequent target of your so-called defenders here, I therefore disprove your "guarantee," regardless of how one reads posts.

 

Brian I think you made reference to me about the "freebie" that you would not provide, since I am the one that has talked about getting the plate for testing. You then went on to say the same people are making negative comments. I assume that was directed at me also

I have not asked for a freebie. In fact I have offered a freebie, my time and energy and shop. I also made specific suggestions about how to have two judges to help make it impartial. I am sure there are many ways to measure the performance of a product. It would be nice to do it like the rest of the world. If I buy a car I can find out Turning Radius, weight, Top Speed, Aceleration, Color, MPG, BHP etc,etc. But on your product all I get is peoples opinion. Why isn't this information provided. It would lead a reasonable person to believe there isn't any improvement.

I even invited Windstring to participate who is obviously pro Plate. What's the problem. If it works prove it with performance testing not by "It feels good".

Like I said I would pay for it and after the test you would buy it back. I mean if I was a dissatisfied customer you would give me my money back anyway, right. Heck sell me the one that you used for your testing, you wouldn't sell that one anyway. I will pay first then you buy it back. That way I couldn't steal it from you.

Also Please don't continue to mis-characterize or mis-state my comments.







<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RonH @ Nov 9 2006, 01:33 AM) [snapback]346073[/snapback]</div>

Ronh this is genius, put me down for 4 or 5

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(firepro @ Nov 9 2006, 02:01 AM) [snapback]346086[/snapback]</div>

 

Brian thanks for the response, like I said from the beginning I think if I knew you I would like you and I applaud your efforts on making this product. You could have cut me to threads and instead you took the high ground. Thanks.

I honestly don't know who Tom is and I am not familiar with his products. But I just feel that you have to have real measurable benefits to make and promote a product. If this mod allows a car to go through a slalom faster, then that translates into less crashes and saved lives. If it makes the car feel like it handles better then there has to be someway to quantify this also, other than just opinion.

I awhile back my mother-in-law had to have heart surgery and looking on the internet I found someone recommending that you ask the doctor how many times he has performed the procedure, what his success rate was and what his patient mortality rate was. When we asked her doctor these questions we found out he was on the low end on performance and we switched to a doctor that had a much better track record. Not that anything is guaranteed but we had a much better feel for what was going on and we probably improved her survival rate. When dealing with performance issues you have to have real numbers, there is just no way around it. Sure they can be biased and fradulent but at least it's better than nothing.

Ray

 

Ray, thank you for your comments below. It is never my intention to rip into someone just because they do not think or believe in something the same way as I do. What is unacceptable to me is for some to put a label on our product that hundreds of others have already commented on favorably here and call it "placebo" when it obviously is not. The majority of people that make this generalization have never even seen our stiffening plate or ridden in a Prius that has one installed.

In theory your idea of testing a car sounds good but the implementation of this is what is difficult. You mention a slalom course. Who is going to set it up? What will the distance of the course be? Who will be the designated driver of this test? What experience does this driver have? What if the car crashes or there are injuries during this test? How many laps are you going to do in order to get your results? You see there are just so many variables involved and like I said before “some†of the non-believers will still question the results, whatever the outcome.

You mention that when you have a performance part you have to have "real numbers". I agree with you Ray and we have over 1,000 plates out there now. A large number of people have already posted their positive impressions of the plate. Like I mentioned many times before if the stiffening plate did not do its intended job don't you think you would have heard about it by now? The internet is a HUGE place and such information would be easily obtainable.

Going back to the "real numbers" it is very easy to give real numbers in regard to HP, Torque, Air/ Fuel ratios, PSI of boost pressure..etc..etc. When you start to deal with handling components it is a different ball game. Way too many variables come into the equation to get repeatable results. One can also not quantify how a car "feels" to its driver. There is no skid pad or slalom course test to reveal how a car "feels" and this is one of the stiffening plates greatest attributes. That it makes the car feel more solid and more connected to the road.

I hope your mother-in-law made it through her surgery okay and all is well.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(firepro @ Nov 9 2006, 02:36 AM) [snapback]346106[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BT Tech @ Nov 9 2006, 12:10 AM) [snapback]346059[/snapback]</div>

You must be talking about me. But again I didn't say your plate didn't work, just that the normal Prius driver would not feel a difference. If I have to race my Prius to feel the handling improvements then it's not worth the price tag to me. I want improvements I can feel in normal fuel saving type driving.

The Placebo Effect however is real and if you ever experienced it then you would know this. Then again maybe you did experience it but didn't know it at the time.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rest @ Nov 9 2006, 01:22 AM) [snapback]346121[/snapback]</div>

What's a "normal" Prius driver? It seems to me, that after hundreds of BT braces have been installed, there's a lot of "normal" Prius drivers among them. I'm not a "racer" and posted earlier in this thread saying that I could tell the difference immediately in the first few blocks of slow driving after it was installed. You make assumptions that are just not so.

For non-users to claim that the hundreds of satisfied BT brace users are under a placebo effect is not only presumptuous and arrogant, but I believe that typical placebo effect rates are generally much, much lower than what is being demonstrated by the satisfied BT brace users.

 

You know, you could go to all the complicated trouble to run the tests, get some sort of data, analyse it to death and eventually come up with some figures that are meaningful to you.
Then somebody could turn around and say that because you are not a qualified nor a certified authority to carry out such tests the results are void.......

I'm now thinking that you could always approach Toyota for their stress data analysis of their stock plate.... so you'd at least have a baseline data set to work from .......... let us know how you get on !

But I prefer to say this :-
If you are happy with your Prius as is, then good for you, go on and live a happy and fruitful life.
If you've installed the BT plate and are happy with your Prius, then good for you - go on an live happy and fruitful life.

 

children, can we give this a rest?

nobody has successfully convinced anyone of anything. nobody, on either side of the argument, has introduced any new data or information since the beginning of the discussion.

so let's stop talking about. at least it until we actually have something new to say. or maybe just stop talking about it altogether.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Nov 8 2006, 11:41 AM) [snapback]345579[/snapback]</div>

Maybe BobZ didn't tell you he was banned for a week for being a constant harrassment without relenting.
If any of that rubs off on anyone else.. its easy to try and carry the torch he carried.

Otherwise, it doesn't matter who you hang out with?

Did I really need to explain that to you?

Seems you really enjoy being spoon fed. Miss mom or something? :lol:

It would help us all if you and your friends would accept and respect others viewpoints.

I'm Sorry, you seemed to be embarrassed with the open revelation that you hang with Bob Z... There is not much hid on PC if you want to dig...
I wasn't trying to embarrass you, but rather help you see what may have influenced your opinions since you feel so strong and don't even own the plate?

Now, I can respect that some people need data on paper.. but thats not the real world, otherwise we wouldn't need fighter pilots, fireman, policemen, nurses, doctors.. we would just have a machine do it.

Engineers.. although I respect what they do and the knowledge and price they paid to aquire that knowledge, it often gives them extreme tunnel vision. I'm in the medical profession and I see it all the time.

It happens to other professions too.. accountants, doctors, lawyers etc.

They spend so much time in thier field they learn to trust without question the laws that govern thier area of expertise and/or specialty.

Then they try and take those same laws and assume they are universally applicable to all circumstances and time frames.

There is a difference between "principles" that hold truths applicable a thousand years ago, today and for another thousand years... like "universal laws". Verses "rules and policies" made by man.

I always get amused when I'm on the phone and the excuse for the incomptetence on the other end is "well sir, thats just our policy".
My repley is usually, "then you wrote a bad policy and need to alter it".. let me speak to your manager.

Those laws are not Bible.
You can only trust them in certain controlled environments and the real world often disproves their patency.

I don't know how old you are and its none of my business.. but the older you get, the more you see that laws and truths you once could depend on, no longer stand but they were only temporariy laws which need to be altered from time to time.

If the plate was tested by anyone out here and even if we collectively put in our two cents as to what should be done and how it should be accomplished and who should do it and when..... there would still be after thoughts after the test and many would not trust the credibility.

I could ask the question "who" would pay for that?
Well certainly its assumed Brian "the owner of the company" should fork out the dough to alleviate undue fears and to justify the benifit of his plate. It would be an excercise in futility and a very expensive one.

It would probrably make some feel better that trust in numbers.. maybe even enough to justify in thier minds why its ok to buy, but it would by no means offset the cost incurred to obtain the test in the first place.

Some out here just don't care... its all about them... and they are selfish to indicate that such a test should be performed to enhance warm and fuzzies for them when they won't even spend 150.00 to test it thierself which is really the only person they care is pleased anyway.

Do you see the logic in this? Isn't that self centered?


Brian has hundred of customers and more coming every day.. would you do these things if it were your company?

Most companies that start off fail. Its because of bad buisiness decisions usually.
This would be one of them.

Once you start that ball rolling all it does is gender more doubt rather than remove it.
People's focus gets off the plate and onto any problems incurred in the faulty test.

Look at politics.. someone can give a false report and it still has damage.. even after the truth is revealed "if" it is revealed. People are emotional creatures and most think with only thier emotions and miss things, but others think only with thier brain and miss things. You need both to be complete.

Sure, I've seen people buy a car because it had an awesome sounding stereo and felt nice on the road and miss that the motor was bad. The plate is simple enough, there is not much room for error.

If hundreds of testomials mean nothing as stated by one person out here,

then reviews, consumer reports and feedback totally mean nothing. Until they get a report from a professional engineer, it means nothing.
------------------------------
You see, I'm the other way around.

When I was contemplateing buying the prius, I didn't go to Toyotas site to see what they had to say about it, nor did I care about what thier paid professional engineers had to say about it. You can log onto "any" car site.. Ford, Chevy, Buick.. they all say they are the best and have the reasons why.

I went to google and typed "pruis reviews".. I wanted to hear from real people realizing that many of those real people would be engineers, doctors and lawyers with thier impressions.

Then came here..... a place where "REAL PEOPLE" ... not cold numbers.. but real experiences, backgrounds, circumstances and situations had already proved the car to me... its the same with the plate.
This is without question the best place to learn about the prius.
And the mere fact that you guys are here too proves that reviews mean something to you unless your here just to cause trouble.

Are you going to believe what one persons test says over what hundreds of people say that are not getting paid and have no reason to lie?

They live in different terrains, have different slants to their driveways, different quality of streets.. on and on and on, the peoples real life experiences are the acid test to whether a product is any good or not.

Some drive fast, some drive crazy, and some drive slow.. reports from them all come here and other places.

When your product has already passed the acid "test of all tests" with flying colors, why spend lots of money for a "less than" test that will mean very little except to a handful of people? Even those who value such tests will be the hardest critics and cut it to pieces?

It takes a little wisdom to run a company.... not just money, ambition, and guts... you can lose it all overnight if your foolish.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rest @ Nov 8 2006, 10:22 PM) [snapback]346121[/snapback]</div>

Some folks cannot tell the difference between Two Bucks Chuck and Château Lafite-Rothschild.

It is not different in driving. This product is not for every driver. For what it is worth, my MPG averages in the mid fifties and I do feel and appreciate the handling improvement that I have experienced since I installed the BT Plate on my Prius.

 

All,

So, Here's a question. I am picking up my 2007 Touring package 6 (NR) on the 21st. I've been lurking for a while, and I'm interested in the BT plate. I'm pretty much impartial on this as I don't have the prius yet.

So, question is, would it be of any use to anyone if I conducted a completely blind test with the plate.

Basically I would install and remove the plate at random intervals and see if my wife notices any change, and if that change corresponds to the change. If necessary I can enlist the use of a friends 06 as well.

If it won't help, or if it's just beating a dead horse and those that don't believe won't change, just as those that do will not, then I won't bother and I'll think more about picking up the plate after I've had my car for a while.

Thanks.

 

Can anyone confirm for me, what suspension upgrades the Touring has over base? The official site is not specific. It just says 'tuned' suspension. I'm guessing, it at least has stiffer shocks/springs, but what about chassis stiffening pieces? Is there anything in place of the stock stiffening plate right now?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(staze @ Nov 9 2006, 12:27 PM) [snapback]346360[/snapback]</div>

I said it once and I caught flak but here goes:
I don't like the definition of a blind test.

1. If you are taking women who drive conservatively and in many cases "are not" in tune with thier car.. I say no!

2. If you tell here to pay attention for any change in handling and feel, and then "don't tell here when the plate is on or not".. I say "maybe".. but not reliable.

3. If you take an average "Joe" or even "Josephine!" that has a history of being able to tell "reasonable differences in car feedback" and do as suggested in # 2, I say fine.

But it doesn't really matter what I say.. because the next guy will have a different opinion and still void your test.

You can't please everybody with test.... until they drive it themselves and notice the difference, no one is a believer.

If you go ahead and buy the plate, I suggest you purposely not install it for a while... maybe 2 or 3 weeks at least. Any shorter than that, your brain will not have had time to become one with the car so you can notice any change.

Have you ever gone to a car lot and test drove cars... they can all feel similiar unless you get used to one first for comparison.

Even when you go to a lot and drive one and you say.. "man this feels nice", your still comparing it to the old car you drive. The next guy can get in the same car that normally drives a Mercedes and say "man this feels like a rattle trap".

Its all relevant based on what your used to.