BT Stiffening Plate Review

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 8 2006, 02:37 PM) [snapback]345573[/snapback]</div>

I proposed a test a few post back, that I was willing to get you and me to participate in. I was also willing to provide the use of my facility and an installer to install this plate 4 times for the test. I then was willing to give up 8 hours of my time to conduct the test and do the necessary follow up.

I also said I would even buy one if he agreed to take it back after the test.

After you said you respected me you then go on to suggest that I am trying to get one for free. Now how can any of this be construed as me trying to get one for free. I even suggested we use yours.

The bottom line is, this is a Performance Part. Not a cosmetic or decorative piece. Therefore it should be judged as a performance part. To me this means a test has to be designed and results have to be measured.

Is there a problem with this logic. I think it's time to put up or shut up.

Ray

 

A whole page... quantity, not quality. The basic question remains unanswered. And you can claim you answered it a hundred more times, but that doesn't make it true.

I am amused to find how little you think of Brian that you have to "mother" this discussion on his behalf, defend him against questions--note, questions, not criticism, and you have to do so with insults and obfuscation.

Its just strange to see you get so defensive (and offensive) when all that is being asked is a simple question about "how it works." That's all, a simple question. You seem to feel that this is your own personal crusade, as if you don't think Brian is a big boy that can take care of himself. I think he is mature enough to reply on his own behalf, without your "protective" mothering. If you peruse this and other threads as you do in your berative manner, you'll see that he has replied calmly and with respect, both attributes sorely lacking in your posts.

This isn't about anything more that "how does it work?" and yet you introduce all kinds of personal issues into what could otherwise be an adult discussion. You can obsessively reply to anyone who dares ask this question for another 25 pages of irrelevant defensiveness, but it will not provide the simple answers being asked for. Neither will it help Brian's business case to be associated with such nonsense.

When it is asked, "How does it work?" a reply of "people say it works" does not provide an answer. And it won't no matter how many times you repeat it and insult reasonable posters to make them go away.

Both you and Brian should consider what end you are pursuing... it amounts to driving off potential customers, something I doubt Brian appreciates, no matter how much you seem to believe he needs your style of "help."

 

I don't get why a test would be necessary. The plate does what it's supposed to do, and everyone who has bought it has been, at least, satisfied enough that they don't return it.

No one is forcing anybody to buy the plate. The people that are doubting and arguing against the plate, don't even have a plate themselves. Pretty much everyone agrees that the money was well spent. It's only $150, compared to other parts (both performance and regular), it doesn't get much cheaper than that! It's not a leap of faith we're talking about here. There's enough reviews from other people that this is a solid product. You can figure out how it works first hand. Put up the cash, and actually give it a go or shut the f*** up, and avoid these threads.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(firepro @ Nov 8 2006, 01:22 PM) [snapback]345684[/snapback]</div>

Are you asking me or someone else out here?.. I nowhere "that I recall" posted I wanted to use my car in a test.. I know it works.

When I installed mine, it didn't go so smooth... my torque wrench slipped and I torqued one of the screws at about 33 lbs instead of 23 and I twisted it off. Had to go to a shop and get the car up in the air and use easyouts and reverse bit drill bits to get the thing out.. I found another one easy enough at hardware store, had to get some more of the grease to put on the bolt.

Mine is on to stay!

Although my other car was a piece of cake, mine was a pain. I see no reason to go out of my way in the least to take "my" plate back off and donate 'any" of my time.

I am grateful and I'm sure Brian is grateful for such a noble gesture on your part.

But I have already placed links "just this morning" to threads where people have already tested.. took it off, tested and put it back on.. tested with dramatic results.

If they won't believe those reports, they "certainly" won't believe mine as they already feel I am polarized and biased in favor of the plate.


My suggestions still stands.. if anyone has a problem.. they can test their own plate, the burden of proof is not on me or anyone else and I will not jump hoops to please anyone at my inconveinience.

I don't need convincing and I have no satisfaction to gain by doing it.... why?

Because the results will not be believed.... it will be our opinion and slanted beliefs.

Its kinda like when the rich man who died and went to hell and he asked Abraham if he would send someone from the dead to go and tell his 5 brothers to convince them of that place of torment so they wouldn't go too, his reply was.. "If they will not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31 is the verse if anyone cares.

Now that I've thrown that story in, someone is going to feel this is now a moral issue.. its not. Its a blind issue.

Ever heard "there is none so blind who will not see?"

We are dealing with unbelief... its a nasty cancer thats almost incurable!

Now if the test is for my entertainment or curiosity.. thats a different story... but I"m not in the mood right now to monkey with my plate and my car for someone elses amusement.

If someone else in my area wants to donate their car and plate, I may be interested in helping.

Believe me "which they won't" I've already tested mine over and over!.... Its a night and day difference if you drive aggressively at all.

If they don't want to buy the plate.. thats their right.... its no sweat off of all of us who were willing to take a chance.

Its thier loss. And I"m sure this isn't the first thing they've missed out on because of being paralyzed by thier fears!

 

I will answer the comments and claims one by one. There are strawmen being knocked down here, which does nothing to answer the questions.

"The plate does what it's supposed to do, and everyone who has bought it has been, at least, satisfied enough that they don't return it. "

Unless we know "what it is supposed to do" how would we know this? Asking how it works is asking what is it supposed to do to make it handle better.


"No one is forcing anybody to buy the plate."

No is claiming anyone is being forced. Specious argument.


"The people that are doubting and arguing against the plate, don't even have a plate themselves."

Of course not! We are asking before purchasing, like smart consumers.


"Pretty much everyone agrees that the money was well spent."

Yeah, pretty much everyone agrees Saddam has WMDs... oops, looks like "everyone" was wrong. Good thing some of us look before we leap.


"It's only $150, compared to other parts (both performance and regular), it doesn't get much cheaper than that!"

If it doesn't work, zero cost is real cheap.


"It's not a leap of faith we're talking about here."

Actually, that's exactly what we are talking about if we don't get an answer to our very simple question.


"There's enough reviews from other people that this is a solid product."

Some of those "reviews" make absurd claims ("corners at twice the speed") which leads us to wonder if the other claims are bogus, too. They actually weaken the case, not strengthen it.


"You can figure out how it works first hand. Put up the cash, and actually give it a go or shut the f*** up, and avoid these threads."

Ahh, the last refuge of those without a reasoned argument: "Agree with me or go away!" Tell you what, when you own this website you will be qualified to decide who posts here and who doesn't.

 

I really hate where this thread has gone. I'm going to simply repeat the fact that I like my BT Plate, and I notice a difference in handling, which I like.

I was willing to take a chance on it, and trust my own sense of whether it works or not, and I also fully understand those who say "prove it." I don't/didn't need it proven to make my decision to buy, and I'm glad I did. But certainly, there is plenty of room in this world for people who need more to go on than I did.

The rest of this discussion has just turned too many shades of ugly and embarrassing. This forum is much better than this, for the most part, and I would like to see the moderators start moderating a bit more. Please, put an end to this senseless arguing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Nov 8 2006, 01:44 PM) [snapback]345698[/snapback]</div>

1. Phil, I can't help it if you don't like my explanation.. thats all you asked for and its not enough.. so I can't help you.

2. Brian is free to jump out here any time he wants, but he is probrably much more busy than I am right now... he probrably has to work for a living!
And if you go back and read his posts, you are ignoring everything he has said... he has better things to do than reanswer the same questions over and over buy people that just dont get it. You are rehashing what he has already answered as you are my posts. You are not going to get your Empiracle Data.....
Nothing satisfies you and your're not happy..so don't buy the plate?..now isn't that easy?
But you enjoy the hashing so I'll play.

3. How does it work?.. I've said numerous times.. I don't know, but I'll give you the best explanation I can.. its not good enough.. so don't ask again.

4. As far as driving off customers.. just in the last few days I've seen several people chime in with a new order and new test results showing wonderful delight.

5. I am not trying to be professional and I really don't think all this is hurting anything.. if anything, its helping as people are coming to hear the issues and choosing for themselves.
I have the luxury of talking to you straight.. Brian doesn't.

You are only making the plate more popular.

You're not going to get what you want...

Is there a problem with you getting the information yourself?

Its not like your spending 5K or something?

thats one question you have never commented to?

Is 150 too much to lose out on if your right?.. I keep asking you what up with that and I have to guess at the answers because you will not answer? cheap, afraid, whats the big deal?

Why is this even an issue with you?

You are still asking the exact same question that was answered by Brian the last time he chimed in.
Why should he waste anymore of his time with you?
Have you always been this spoiled and hard headed?

And you couldn't prove it by me that your reading any of Brians post.... here let me refresh your memory of his recent posts
Here post # 412 and 418 you posted in response right after that.. but it wasn't good enough for you as usual.

And here is a post that is just for you quoted from Dan. post # 396

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Nov 8 2006, 02:28 PM) [snapback]345743[/snapback]</div>

I'm glad you finally understand!

I'm going to try and give this a rest so others can speak more freely... you are not receptive to me anyway so I'm wasting everybodys time.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 8 2006, 05:08 PM) [snapback]345725[/snapback]</div>

Windstrings are you suggesting that if you, with me conducted this test and if you found out this plate wasn't effective you wouldn't believe your own test results? You don't think some people wouldn't believe you? See, I think a lot of people would believe you. Just like if I came out and said that the course could be conducted faster with the plate and had real data I believe a lot of people would believe that also.

Thats why I recommended two parties in different camps do the test. This is a performance part it needs to evaluated on that basis.

Windstrings I believe this part could work. I have torn many of these cars apart, had several on frame machines. Right now I have a whole rear end of one tore out. I am awed at the engineering that goes into these cars, it's much more advanced than most people can comprehend(me included). To add an aftermarket part for a frame that is advanced beyond belief without any real performance data just doesn't pass the sniff test.

Ray

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(firepro @ Nov 8 2006, 02:47 PM) [snapback]345761[/snapback]</div>

Ray, I will respond since you directed the question at me, but I'm going to try and not dominate the thread for a while.. I love to respond, but that causes others not too and there comes a point when people will no longer listen after the 5th time they have blocked you out. Rather than recieve, they only push back.
It just becomes argueing and no one really gets convinced of anything.

I'm sorry, but this is one thing I don't have much faith in.
I have much more faith in the plate than I do some people.

The people that would find the test interesting and believable are the same ones that believe now anyway.
The ones who have decided "not" to believe will not be pursuaded with another test. IMO

Besides.. even if a few were.. my problem is that I don't feel good hearted enough to mess with my car for the test. If you want to use yours.. I'll tag along and keep you honest! :lol: :lol: just kidding!

I hope you understand my point, but hundreds of folks have had positive results...
If we are trying to please some who needs Empiracle data, its impossible, it will never be Empiracle to thier standards unless they do the test and redo it over and over till they are happy.

They really need to conduct thier own tests and report back if they are the ones with doubt. I don't think anyone out here is afraid of the results if the test are honest.

150.00 is too much for them to risk, and I"m not worried about it.

There are plenty of guys out there with spare time that would love to do such a test.

 

My simple demonstration was to point out what I thought would be the easiest way of explaining the multiplication of crossed vectors I guess in reality there is no simple way of explaining it. Basically in principle given two unique vectors at their point of meeting will have a multiplied force in the X/Z axis.
So in that way I was thinking that the lines of force seen by the plate could be seen as two separate vectors one from the front suspension both left and right and the rear suspension left and right thereby giving you the vectors of force and then using the principles of multiplying cross vectors comes into play.






[/quote]
As to Tom's testing, you said in post #380 of this thread:
[/quote]

The testing I'm referring to in that post, is from Tom's web site where they are talking about the design and testing of Tom's version of a Toyota car (that's not sold here in United States) and about the extensive testing that all Tom's products goes through. So the reality is I'm assuming, which in reality is bad on my part because we all know what happens when you assume. Putting that aside with them making Toyota team race cars and a lot of their parts being offered as original equipment options and parts being sold through Toyota dealers just like TRD parts. Is a good enough endorsement for me on the quality of the parts.

 

"Is 150 too much to lose out on if your right?.. I keep asking you what up with that and I have to guess at the answers because you will not answer? cheap, afraid, whats the big deal?"

If you can show me how my personal financial situation is (1) any of your business or (2) has any bearing on the question of how the plate works or doesn't, then I'll consider answering this.

This is just one example of how you have made a simple technical question one of the most personal and negative nature. It is unprofessional, it is irrelevant, and it is just plain disrespectful to me and others who have been very patient and objective in asking a simple question on this public forum.

You have chosen to appoint yourself personal apologist for Brian, who neither needs, nor I suspect, wants the kind of "support" you are posting here. I'll stand corrected if he wants to chime in and say he welcomes your attacks and personal needling of me and others, but I'm not expecting any from him. I think he has the time, he just knows that attacking potential customers is bad business and bad manners.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Nov 8 2006, 12:28 PM) [snapback]345743[/snapback]</div>

There have been answers provided as to how the device works. Windstrings posted up a very good description. You want scientific proof? Not gunna happen. The plate is selling well, and people are happy. Why should Brian pony up a large pile of cash to satisfy the minority?

How is "cornering at twice the speed" a bogus claim? For drivers that know the limits of their car, it's a viable measuring stick. I'm one of the ones that made that claim, and I stand by it. Cornering is the most obvious effect of the plate. With the stock plate, a particular on-ramp curve rated at 30km/h would begin to understeer significantly at 45km/h. With the stiffening plate, allowed a 60km/h speed through the curve with no understeer whatsever.

Tell me, what is absurd in that claim? It's a corner that I have taken many times with the Prius in stock form. It was a signicifcant, recognizable, positive change with the plate.

It's the people that "know" it can't work. It's the "technicians" that think they know what they're talking about when they say it can't possibly work. Seriously, if you're interested in the plate then just frickin' buy it, but you won't be satisfied until you get some hard numbers. If you feel that the plate doesn't work, then that's pretty much the end of discussion, unless you find someone who would be willing to test it in a way that you approve of and provide data. Maybe it's time to do some of this work yourself?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Presto @ Nov 8 2006, 05:20 PM) [snapback]345878[/snapback]</div>

I used to live in Washington in the mountains with a 66% grade. I had a cat road that went straight up that grade behind my house.

I had two engineers come out and tell me how only a cat could go up a road that steep and had all the reasons.

So I hoped in my Chevy Luv 4 X 4 with a 6 inch lift kit no less and enlarged tires and went up just fine!

I could even do it when its wet.

Which would you put your money on?
The fact that I did it so I should be able to do it again? or that two engineers proved it couldn't be done "in thier heads".

Why get all worked up with test results that the scoffers are going to shoot down anyway and count them as non credible documents that amount to no proof.

For engineers, they sure seem too broke to just buy the plate and try it themselves?
Maybe they didn't fare well as engineers?.. just conjecture I suppose, but figuring these guys out makes me itch.

 

Brian are you willing to buy your brace back from me after I conduct the afore mentioned test. If anybody has any suggestions on how to conduct a fair test, input would be appreciated. I have a 2005 and a 2006 prius to do the test on so if there is feedback on which car to run the test on let me know.

Ray

 

Hello Everyone... I have had A LOT of reading to do since I last posted here!!!! There seems to be a very large number of people that have purchased our BT stiffening plate and have voiced their opinions here on this site. Then, there is a MUCH smaller group of individuals who have never seen or driven in a car that has the stiffening plate that are wanting absolute proof that it works as well as all of the people say or are trying to disprove the effects the plate has. The fact that a HUGE number of people have purchased one and have commented on it here means nothing to this small group.

As the manufacturer of this product I have already stated what tests I have conducted to know that our stiffening plate works. I have already posted my background and explained the process of how the BT stiffening plate came to fruition.

Regarding some of our "supporters" on this site I sincerely thank them for taking the time to post their impressions and results and field a lot of the questions that people have about our product. There has been accusations of people getting too personal and such but I have not seen anything that is really too over-the-top. If there had been I can assure you that a moderator would have jumped in here and deleted the post.

Regarding people wanting to perform their own "tests". Anyone is of course able to purchase their BT stiffening plate in the Prius Chat on-line store and perform any number of tests they wish to conduct. As far as BT Tech supplying a plate for someone to "test" is not going to happen. These are the same people that have never seen our stiffening plate but have voiced their negative opinions here. I have no interest or desire to provide a plate to these people just to pacify them as they would already have a pre-conceived bias going into the test.

Let’s take this one step further. Let’s say that there was someone that was objective and had no pre-conceived notions or biases going into this. This imaginary person gets the plate and tests it. He/she goes 5 seconds faster through a slalom course with our plate compared to without. He/she states that the car feels better to drive compared to the stock plate. I can GUARANTEE you that the nay-sayers will be shooting down this evaluation in every way, shape and form. They will be questioning the temperatures, humidity, condensation levels on the track… temperatures of the tires, maybe they were hotter so that they “bit†better and that was the reason for the better times..etc.etc.etc… You also can not put a numerical value on how much better the car feels with our stiffening plate installed than without it. These are sensations that have to be experienced first hand and no amount of testing will reveal this in terms of a numerical value.

Like I mentioned before, if there are people that refuse to purchase one of our plates because there is no hard empirical data supporting the claims that most users of our plate posted on this site then I would prefer that you did not buy one. There are NO OTHER manufacturers of similar performance parts that will offer you the data that you are demanding. If this means that we will lose out on sales because of it, so be it.

In my experience it is impossible to try to please everyone. There are some people that no matter what you do for them, the amount of money spent trying to prove something to them will never be enough. It is sometimes best to just to let them be.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BT Tech @ Nov 8 2006, 09:44 PM) [snapback]345993[/snapback]</div>

I disagree. First off, let me say I'm a satisfied customer of yours and respect your decision not to supply freebies to would-be test engineers. They don't put those large color ads in C&D for nothing!
But I think you underestimate some of the skeptics here. I'm sure there are some neurotics who would fit your description. I think one of your boosters shows signs of OCD, as well. But take your example: a 5s benefit in a slamom seems reasonable and I think those of an engineering bent would understand there are some uncontrolled variables and might even ask about them. But just on this page a skeptic doubted 100% improvement in cornering speed (and I agree) and booster related his 33% improvement -- something closer to the envelope of believability but not anywhere near 100%. Doubling of performance just doesn't occur in complex, well designed systems. A few examples: there was one amateur tester who was doing coast down tests with your spoiler. Don't remember the results but they seemed reasonable and their were was give and take about the methodology. There are others, but I've got to go to dinner.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RonH @ Nov 8 2006, 09:05 PM) [snapback]346009[/snapback]</div>

Duly noted... you heard nothing as usual...

 

Brian, it is surprising to find that you don't think that this has gotten out of line. Your own posts have been appropriately respectful and patient, yet others make subtle and not-so-subtle insinuations about how those who merely ask questions are cheap, unsophisticated, or have marital issues. Is this really, in your view, an acceptable way to handle customer relations?

I am disappointed, and it leads me to wonder how a dissatisfied customer of yours would be treated, if you find such behavior acceptable in this forum. Would it be acceptable in your place of business?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BT Tech @ Nov 8 2006, 06:44 PM) [snapback]345993[/snapback]</div>

I definitely agree. It's something that's more subjective than objective. As you mentioned earlier there are too many variables to have test results that everyone would agree on.....no matter how much money is spent on the test.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KTPhil @ Nov 8 2006, 09:52 PM) [snapback]346050[/snapback]</div>

Your still confused.... I don't know Brian, I don't work for Brian... I am not professional and don't care to be.

I am not an appointed represenative of his plates....everything I say is of my own accord. Although I appreciate mutual thoughts that Brian may have, I don't expect it. I"m not his brother and I have my own right to get frustrated with people who insult myself and everyone else who was willling to buy the plate on blind faith and the statements of hundreds of others.

Anyone who "demands" a test be done needs to get in touch with reality.
Buy the plate or go away.. just like any store or any product.

Why are you guys being so selfish to demand things of Brian and doubt his word and and all those who believe in his product?

It has been stated so many times everyone is sick sick sick of hearing it....

How many ways does it have to be said before you get it...

Do you see how you twist things around.. and can't you admit your just being antagonistic?

Why do you assume me and brian are related at all.. do we sound alike?

Do you want him to spank my pants like a bad boy?

Are you trying to get daddy mad at me?

Is this a little Sibling rivalry or what?

Grow up!