BT Stiffening Plate Review

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bryanmsi @ Nov 1 2006, 07:14 PM) [snapback]342272[/snapback]</div>

I don't consider the prius a performance car, but at the same time its faster than any car I"ve owned.

They are putting alot of cars out now with tons of horsepower and I"m sure there is no comparision, but I'm just amazed at what Toyota has done with the little horsepower it has....

so by the same token.. a slow car thats efficient may be faster than a fast car that has issues.

The prius is built well and does wonders with what it has... this flexation thing is the only flaw I know of.. and its easily rectified with 160 bucks.

 

Hi Brian - what Pinto Girl says earlier about the correct torque is true. I'm going with what it says on PCshop, 24ft/lbs OK ?. I've set my wrench to that and tested it on a torque meter that our engineers have. And will recheck the bolts after a few hundred miles.
I treat my Prius like crystal glass, I never floor it, ease it gently around corners and the fastest I've ever been was 74 mph - and that was by accident :lol:
I will definitely post about the plate - once I have something to say.

Hello 'Bryanmsi'
I think what you said in your post sums it up nicely -
Quote
2. Stiffer chassis makes the suspension work better. The holy grail of modern performance chassis design is chassis stiffness. Look at the effort BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Jaguar, etc. go through to stiffen their chassis (and then publish that improvement). The reason is that chassis flexing changes suspension geometry under load...and that does all sorts of nasty things to handling characteristics. There are no situations where more chassis flex is desirable - even cars with "cushy" rides have stiff chassis with soft suspension attached. Many people add strut tower braces and other stiffeners to their cars, and BMW added them from the factory to the Z4 roadster. The question becomes how much effect the BT plate has here, but any improvement will help.

I've had Mercs & Jags and for heavy cars the handling has been very good - the Mercs have been impressive. Even MB admit their W124 series were over-engineered. But they gave a great ride....because their chassis were so damn good (ie. solid)

IMHO - I had a look at Tom's plate and although I'm sure it works, it does look like it comes in a kit form - and that, I would have thought, makes it inherently more flexible. The other point is that there is more empty space between each cross brace than the stock brace has (those large circular holes) - so once again more flexible.
Brian's solution is a solid chunk of metal that looks to me like it does the business.

Hey - just got a call from home and its arrived !
Guess what I will doing on Saturday......

 

Brian my hats off to you for making this mod. On the surface it makes sense that it should work. Most people in this world talk and talk, rarely does someone get off their butt and go to work. But because of people like you, great inventions are made and all of us are the benefiary, so thanks for what you have done.

As a long time reader of Consumer Reports I have seen a lot of products that were supposedly great products get shot down again and again with scientific testing. My brother and I went round and round about slick 50 until consumer reports did their test and found out it was a waste of money. Where is Slick50 now. We put a quart of this in 100s of cars that we sold, thinking we were doing our customers a favor. At 20 dollars a quart you can do the math. Their was plenty of people swearing about how great the procuct was but where was the science. I think a scientific approach is in order in some cases especially when you consider this car is a child of science and maybe the most advanced car on the road.

When you first built this mod I don't think any testing was called for. Espically since you did it for yourself. When you first starting selling these, I think the attitude -- It seems to work and try it and let me know --was also appropiate. But now you have sold over one thousand of these, maybe it's time for some real test. If your cost of construction and selling are $75 bucks then you have made $75,000 dollars. Which you deserve. But I challenged you a few months ago to do test and give us some real data other than just peoples opinion. I even said I would take your word on the data. So maybe it's time

I really respect what you have done and we all owe a debt to people like you. But please separate yourself from all the con-artist out their by giving us some facts. If your in Houston I have two 2005 and one 2006 prius you can use at your discretion.

Thanks
Ray

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(firepro @ Nov 2 2006, 08:43 AM) [snapback]342490[/snapback]</div>

I totally agree with your rational and I think every good product has an advantage is they have buyin from the scientific community to avoid fears of snake oil sales, but every business venture requires weighing the benifits verses cost.

I can't speak for Brian, but If I was in his shoes, I would fear that soon the gig may be up and toyota will make the mod themselves.

If eleborate expensive unbiased testing were done and you could increase sales and longevity to offset the research cost, then it would be worth it.

But if its gonna be over soon, then its not worth it to have more buyin by the public if toyota is gonna steal the gig away anyway. Let Toyota pay for the testing! They are already set up for it anyways!

Scientific testing is not whats its cracked up to be either... the more elaborate and the more expensive, the more room for error.

How many times do you see reports come out about medical issues and drugs that are recanted later by another expensive study that is recanted again by another and then another.
Soon you start realizing its nothing more than politics. Everybody wants to make a name for themselves by breaking the established image and draw attention to themselves. Or someone pays off another.

By the time we figure out is was all bunk, their books and interviews have made them millions.

Few test are truely accurate that stand the test of time.. it tends to be all about image and sales.

I said that to say...... although a piece of paper from a scientific study may impress many, it means nothing to me... I've been around long enough to read between the lines.
I can make a study say any thing I want if I monkey with it long enough and there is not someone else qualified looking over my shoulder that has someone looking over his shoulder that has another looking over his shoulder.

Someone is always paying off someone and little is this world can be trusted.
Deception makes tons of money, so its worth doing it by many.

We won't talk about Ford and Chevy ads now! :lol: And they all have scientific studys to back them up!

If someone comes out with a study later on that says this plate is doing nothing, it would mean nothing to me, because someone can never prove something they believe against something you already know.

Whether I'm decieved or not is another issue. Some trust in science, but then get thrown off because men can manipulate the scales.

Trusting in science alone can decieve you.... thats how magicians work thier work.. its what you don't see that gets you!


If I had a product and it worked this well and had this much people that believed in it, I would let the product continue to speak for itself.

But I'm not an expert and a business major, so maybe thats why what I say may actually make some sense! :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ynono @ Nov 1 2006, 01:11 PM) [snapback]342025[/snapback]</div>

Asking Lance would be irrelevant or at best hearsay. He rides Treks made of carbon fiber which is notorious for bottom bracket failures. Better to ask Mario Cipollini who rode Cannondales, whose design and materials were picked to minimize bottom bracket flex, usually at the front of sprint finishes.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Nov 1 2006, 06:39 PM) [snapback]342240[/snapback]</div>

I hope you're not still riding that Cannondale. I seem to recall they had a lifetime warranty on the frame and unless you did something like overtighten the head set, you should get a new one.

Which brings up a point I made back when Brian introduced his plate. Toyota isn't totally cost containing by using stamped steel. Steel has the nice property that it will last essentially forever in repetitive stress applications as long as the yield point isn't exceeded. Aluminum on the other hand will fracture after some usually large number of stress cycles even without exceeding yield. Why's it used in aircraft, automotive and other high performance applications? It's light and strong. And airplanes are regularly inspected for these types of hairline cracks. I'm not saying everybody's plate is going to crack next week. But I do inspect mine every now and then. I also inspect my bikes regularly, as well!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 2 2006, 07:14 AM) [snapback]342506[/snapback]</div>

Very true. Just look at what the EPA says a Prius should be getting.

 

I would like to thank brian at bt tech for coming out with their stiffening plate. I have spoken to brian on the phone many times prior to my purchasing the plate from the prius chat store and he has always been very helpful and available to speak to me.

Obviously brian is not a large company that sells millions of these plates. Back when i owned a machine shop i know what it costs to make the kind of product that he is offering and i know that it is not cheap to do. Writing the cnc program alone and the machining of the small quantity that he does takes alot of time and money. I am still surprised that he is selling them as cheaply as he is which is great for people like me.
I have a question though for everyone here. for all of us that have bought a bt plate most of us like the handling improvements that we experience with the bt plate. Why are people demanding that brian publish test reports? is it just to validate what everyone here already knows and that the plate works? Does anyone know how expensive it would be to conduct such tests? about 20 years ago we had a job to do for Ford that involved deflection measuring that had to be done on an engine component. We had to measure the deflection at a certain point using an approved engineering facility and licensed engineers with certifications and seals on all of our paper work. This small test cost my company in excess of 25,000.00 dollars and that was in 1985! I can't even imagine what it would cost now.

Why dont people ask for these tests to be conducted on the other handling parts like Toms or the other parts made? I never see one person asking for the same test to be conducted with any other product except the bt plate? why is this? the bt plate is less expensive than anything else on the market, superbly made and it works. Why all the demands to prove that it does work when all of us that already bought it know that it does?

Ken Stewart
2006 Prius #6

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ken Stewart @ Nov 2 2006, 02:00 PM) [snapback]342722[/snapback]</div>

Many people are afraid to jump not matter how many times they've seen others do it and say its fine.

If you did the report, it still wouldn't alleviate their fears.

I can appreciate the "idea" of providing scintific proof, but it means little and provides little.

Let me tell you a bedtime story:

Once upon a time our scientists were sure the earth was flat, even though it defied all logic.. they went only with what they could see with thier eyes and formulated a hypothesis that made everything else revolve around them and thier idea. Hence the universe revolved around us!

Does that about size it up?

 

I am not suggesting that Brian spends tons of money doing a test. But can't he throw out some cones in a parking lot and see what his maximum speed is, with and without the modification? I have very little knowledge on how to judge these kinds of things. It seems that there should be some simple test that people who regularly deal with suspension issues can do to really evaluate performance improvements.

In Consumer Reports test are reguraly done on products. Some of them are very simple and some of them don't always jive with my experience, but for the most part the process of trying to come up with a practical test that would evaluate performance is worthwhile and helps buyers to make an informed decision.

A big killer in SUV' wrecks is tip-overs. Remember when Suzuki sued Consumer Reports after they labeled their SUV as "Un-acceptable" because of tip-over potential. Well we know how it turned out, Suzuki lost, consumer reports won. I personally witnessed two people get killed 50 feet in front of me because of a tip-over in a SUV about six months ago. Thanks for testing and consumer reports I have kept my family out of owning a SUV. If Brian has a mod that helps in emergency manuevers then lets prove it, because then this is something worhtwhile and will save lives.


An example is paint, in one of their test, they paint outdoor samples of many brands on to boards and let them sit outside for years. Then occaisionally they come back and measure them for different characteristics. I don't think thats so expensive but it's surprising how often a very in-expensive paint holds up better than a much more expensive paint.

Incidentally consumer reports estimate on mpg is around 43, EPA is 50-60 and mine, with about 10 different prius's is around 46 to 47. (They have written articles on how the EPA test are wrong)

It seems that Brian with his background and experience could devise a test that's relatively simple and inexpensive.

By the way this is a challenge really to Brian not to the other posters since they don't manufacture this product. Saying the world is flat or how the EPA is wrong on their fuel estimates doesn't invalidate the Scinetific Method any more than saying the placebo effect means that the people who have bought this product and believe it works are all wrong.

Scientific Method:[a method of research in which a problem is identified, relevant data are gathered, a hypothesis is formulated from these data, and the hypothesis is empirically tested.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 2 2006, 05:11 PM) [snapback]342850[/snapback]</div>

Ouch, my bullshit meter just pegged. What "scientists" were sure the earth was flat? Those working in the Vatican? What "logic" does the flat earth theory defy? The observation that the earth is not flat is empirical, even the ancients had a good estimate of the circumference.

What's next, scientists proved that bees can't fly?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(firepro @ Nov 2 2006, 06:40 PM) [snapback]342887[/snapback]</div>

In the case of my chassis mods to my old Mustang, the test was to jack up a front wheel about a foot of the ground. With the export brace (i.e., triangulated strut tower brace) and subframe connectors, I could now open the doors without binding. I hope the Prius passes that one already, though, I suppose a cornering test with a g-force meter would please the skeptical. I'd certainly be inclined to pay attention to those results. Whatever you do, though, I'd suggest a double-blind test.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aaf709 @ Nov 2 2006, 11:42 AM) [snapback]342567[/snapback]</div>

Good Grief! The EPA doesn't say the Prius SHOULD be getting anything. It's for relative estimates only and they say so, constantly. But they only have themselves to blame as they keep adding fudge factors to bring it more in line with "real world" values. They should have just used an arbitrary scale like they do with crash tests - RPM, relative points for mileage. That wouldn't be confusing, would it?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(firepro @ Nov 2 2006, 05:40 PM) [snapback]342887[/snapback]</div>

Unless its an independent source, doubters will not believe the results... although many would see them as quite interesting.. those same people would buy anyway.

It would be fun though... as long as you didn't flip your prius!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RonH @ Nov 2 2006, 05:48 PM) [snapback]342892[/snapback]</div>

Yep!

I guess everyone just didnt' believe the scientist of that day and decided the earth was flat instead and so et the precedent. B)

But argueing about this is a distraction... if you don't get my point, you don't get it.

Some of the smartest people in the world are the ones that miss it the easiest because it doesn't fit into thier equation, so it can't be so.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Nov 2 2006, 07:06 PM) [snapback]342901[/snapback]</div>

Why don't you make your points directly instead of telling condescending "bedtime stories?"

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RonH @ Nov 2 2006, 07:48 PM) [snapback]342892[/snapback]</div>

Actually, that "story" made my bullshit meter explode!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RonH @ Nov 2 2006, 03:58 PM) [snapback]342896[/snapback]</div>

OK, maybe it was a bad example. But people have posted that they were expecting 60mpg and didn't get that. I feel it would be the same if BT were to give data. You might drive your Prius differently from that test and not get the same results. Or feel like the BT test is about as believable as the EPA figures and not get it based on that reason.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aaf709 @ Nov 2 2006, 07:36 PM) [snapback]342915[/snapback]</div>

That's a good point. But the reason there hasn't been a test of the BT plate is that its hard to do a meaningful test in this case. You could put the car on a rack and measure strain or twist pre- and post- but so what does that mean. You could run some slaloms and measure tip speeds pre- and post- but no thanks. There's a reason CR puts training wheels on the cars they test that way! My personal test was running an underbanked freeway interchange at high speed and noticing how sweaty my palms were afterwards. I tested the OEM tires and their replacements this way as well! These tests were not a single or double blind study.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RonH @ Nov 2 2006, 06:13 PM) [snapback]342904[/snapback]</div>

Yea.. your right... that was condescending.....

Did I offend your intelligence?

Kinda shows you intelligence is not all its cracked up to be?

Common sense is what sells the BT Brace.....

Is that direct enough for you?.. or do I need to spell it out some more?

I don't want to get you anymore confused than you already are....

I think the BT Brace Thread is maybe the longest lasting Thread ever...... I'm amazed at how much controversy it genders....

 

Why dont people ask for these tests to be conducted on the other handling parts like Toms or the other parts made? I never see one person asking for the same test to be conducted with any other product except the bt plate? why is this? the bt plate is less expensive than anything else on the market, superbly made and it works. Why all the demands to prove that it does work when all of us that already bought it know that it does?

Ken Stewart
2006 Prius #6
[/quote]


I Ken,

Well actually Tom's part's our tested and have the backing of Toyota themselves Tom's builds race cars for Toyota and other parts for Toyota vehicles and these parts are sold directly from Tom's or through Toyota dealerships.

Tom's makes two (actually three parts the other one being a bar that attaches to the front mounting points of the lower control arms of the front suspension) different parts for the bottom of the chassis one is a floor stiffening brace that is made up of four parts that are bolted together and is not a kit it's a piece used to strengthen the forward part of the chassis just behind the front suspension. The other chassis peace is a rear suspension stiffening piece that replaces the stock stiffening plate the same as the BT brace but also has metal that goes out from the stiffening plate to the outside of the frame just forward of the start of the rear suspension and then has a piece that is attached he tween the left and right rear suspension mounts that stops that area of flexing.

Now I'm not saying the BT plate does not work I just don't think it's designed right I have spent 35 years in design testing and certification of aircraft components for Boeing,Lockheed Martin, Grumman/Northrop and others. So I might think I have just a small amount of credibility behind me just for the fact that my word would mean the difference between billions of dollars in profit or loss.

And then there's the one deniable fact that Toyota backs Tom's and sales Tom's for their vehicles and their other products for some of their cars as optional equipment so you can say factory installed.

So then we have Brian saying that I am self-serving and then somebody else call's me ignorant. This must make you guys wonder what's going on here!! The things I point out and say can be backed up by fact but Brian's and others have only their opinion to support there's. Which is okay by me but don't blast me for my opinion because it differs from yours.

My original post was not meant to be mudslinging at Brian's plate just to point out a problem that I saw in the design of the plate and I even pointed out if he machined more around the bolt area and with bolts with a bigger head on them would solve the problem completely (bigger surface area for the bolt to bite) but he does not look at that just bash me.

Go figure.