BT Stiffening Plate Review

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jbarnhart @ Aug 3 2006, 12:50 PM) [snapback]297020[/snapback]</div>

You did not read his reply carefully. He does not refer to "skinny low profile tires" but to "skinny low-rolling-resistance tires." 185s are skinny, and we all know the Prius uses low rolling-resistance tires.

Mike Allen has been with PM for a long time, and the list of his car tests--including racing cars--are legion. If there's someone who can give an evaluation based on the theory of it, it's him.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(syclone @ Aug 3 2006, 06:36 AM) [snapback]296902[/snapback]</div>

Done.

 

On the fence? It's ONLY $160 bucks and worth a try, don't you think? The plate got the ball rolling to upgrading the rest of the suspension on my Prius. It handles like a dream now. Normal, and Sunday drivers may not notice a difference in just 'driving around'. It does make the ride seem more solid, but some people may not notice the difference. The significance of the plate doesn't reveal itself until some harder driving is done. Exit and on-ramps are good sources of sharper curves and the benefits of the plate should be easily realized at that point.

I feel sorry for the people who are interested, but can't accept the plate as something that actually works. The amount of people positive about the plate greatly outnumbers the people that don't notice a different. Ah well... keep missing out. One bad thing about the plate though: By handling turns better, I wore down my tires fast because I started taking turns faster and harder

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 3 2006, 10:44 AM) [snapback]297068[/snapback]</div>

News Flash: 2004+ Priuses don't have low resistance tires. Thus why we're all laughing at your expense.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 3 2006, 09:22 AM) [snapback]297000[/snapback]</div>

This reminds me of Senate Majority Leader Frist, a renowned heart surgeon before becoming senator, diagnosing Terry Schiavo based upon viewing videotapes that were made and edited by a pro-life advocacy group.

 

Hey, Presto, are you still looking for a driver to help you with evaluating your suspension mods? Do you have access to any equipment that might quantify the results?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jbarnhart @ Aug 3 2006, 09:50 AM) [snapback]297020[/snapback]</div>

I know Darell didn't do a full double-blind, but it's nice try diverting the attention from answering the question yourself. Again, by what numbers and how much do you know this plate had an effect beyond SOTP metric? This isn't denial the plate could work, but rather how much.

Like most of the religious discussions on this board of the past and around the country, once you press people for hard numbers they start humming-and-hawing and divert by attacking the questioner's credibility.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Presto @ Aug 3 2006, 11:46 AM) [snapback]297129[/snapback]</div>

Presto, come on be fair... "now" involves your Sportivo. Have you tried Sportivo with stock plate?

How are we this website that enumerates MPG details down to the sub-decimal amount of gasoline, temperature, etc etc, formulas for drag coefficient, tire and wheel weight effects, tire sizes, have to take it on faith and can't come up with numbers for this?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 2 2006, 09:59 PM) [snapback]296688[/snapback]</div>

The issue is that the fork is not planar, or horizontal and the tines of the fork have variable cross-sections. The stock plate works if all the forces can be kept coplanar. But as the weight on the car varies with driving forces, this is not the case.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 2 2006, 10:21 PM) [snapback]296700[/snapback]</div>

Hi ScottR,

This is easily explainable with basic physics. Please go google "Coupled Pendulums".

 

donee,
thank you for your courteous and insightful replies.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 3 2006, 02:44 PM) [snapback]297068[/snapback]</div>

The fact is that the present generation of the Prius this discussion is about (2004 to 2006) and many people have commented on the quirky handling, does not use "low rolling resistance tires" . However Jbarnhart screwed up the language, his point is valid and disqualifies MA as a knowledgable commenter. It appears that MA made his comment based on faulty understanding of the status of the Prius, and based on the information you gave him. It appears to me that MA got Placebo'd himself, primarily by Doctor ScottR telling him this pill (Darelldd's website) will make him feel better.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Aug 3 2006, 07:37 PM) [snapback]297356[/snapback]</div>

Ah, well, so much for the courteous part.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike @ Aug 3 2006, 01:28 PM) [snapback]297326[/snapback]</div>

Right on!

You love your faith but it does not necessarily transfer to me. That is not an insult to you, it is just a fact.

The supporters of the plate praise it too much, they protest questions and questioners too much, and they resist an objective measurement of the benefits of the plate too much. They loose much credibility that way. The benefits are marginal and hard for some to measure. Others find their itch is scratched by it. If there was an objective analysis, I and many others might better able to predict if it would scratch my/our (different) itch.

The question is: does Brian feel he would gain or loose more from an objective comparison.

The fact that he does not publish such such an objective comparison speaks volumes to me.

 

I don't have a dog in this fight... but all the talk of double-blind testing/etc still seems too statistical & based around subjective SOTP perceptions for a simple question: The BT plate is supposed to improve handling... so does it? As far as I'm concerned, the simplest, most objective way to answer questions around handling is LAP TIMES! Take a Prius to your favorite track, have several good drivers drive a road course with and without the plate, and check out the average lap times for each with and without. If you're really enterprising and have the resources, you use instrumentation like MotorTrend does which shows you all sorts of telemetry around the track to see what differences if any there are (e.g. entry/exit speed, g-forces, etc).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 3 2006, 08:42 PM) [snapback]297360[/snapback]</div>

Hi ScottR,

Sorry you found that uncourteous. But I think its probable that the PM editor was just trying to please a reader (read that customer), as best he could with the resources at hand. Kinda like Darrelldd's wife was just trying to please him. Nothing wrong in that motivation, but its not technically concise. MA's comment regarding the tires iluminates what his "resources at hand" are. And I find that those resources are apparently insufficient.

Which is why experiments should be double-blind when they use people sensing. I agree with Jbarnhart that the comments from MA and Darelldd's experiment are not reliable, consequently. The Placebo effect is alive and well. Or in Darelldd's case the reverse Placebo effect. I personally think the power to "win" by saying the plate is good after buying it, is less than power to benefit one's fellow man (as in the MA response, Darelldd's experiment, and the reports on here of the plate's effects).

But all this theory of experiments stuff is off-topic.

My personal experience with the plate are way back in this thread. You might look it up. I found it absolutely neccassary for spring-time winds here in Chicagoland. Or else, just stay of the highways whenever is there a wind warning for big-rigs. That works too. Too bad we can't get allot of SUV's to do that !

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jbarnhart @ Aug 3 2006, 09:50 AM) [snapback]297020[/snapback]</div>

Donee, jbarnhart, if Darell's wife's honest assessment (and some of the other negatives in this thread) can be discounted because they're not professional/experienced enough to be reliable, then how many positives in this thread can also be discounted by this same "bar"? What is the measure of professional/experienced enough?

In a PhD dissertation, to prove the existence of something you have to identify and isolate masking factors, and then prove a positive and also a negative with and without the masking factors.

So breaking this down into an objective test, the masking factors is the driver and the plate installer so a double-blind is needed. A positive-signature is when the driver experiences improvement with the BT plate installed, and a negative when the driver experiences no-op.

The positive-signature must be matched with an equivalent negative with a stock plate to be taken as a positive result. This is an AND operation where "true it really works" only if (always T with BT) && (always F without BT).

So you know enough when it fails the simple logic test above? Everybody and the Bible knows the Sun revolves around the Earth so it is inherently true?

It is not (always T with BT) and (always F without BT) hasn't been tested. The masking factor of the driver knowing the BT plate is on hasn't been removed either.

In a court of law, a person cannot be judged guilty (or T/positive here) if there's reasonable doubt. In this thread, just because most of the Prius on Ebay have been in accidents does not mean Prius are the most accident prone vehicles.

Another person experienced improved MPG (positive) running on premium gas and dropped MPG (negative) switching back to regular. This could be a valid result once properly filtered even though we "know" it's not possible. Humans haven't progressed this far taking things on testimonials (which is as bad as snake-oil).

A fair review here is a full-test, otherwise doubt lingers about a placebo effect. And that's the bottom-line.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(esskay @ Aug 3 2006, 06:01 PM) [snapback]297410[/snapback]</div>

That's the strange part and what some of us keep pointing out is the lack of this too. Meantime, I'm going to pick up a G-Tech Pro RR, or something, just to measure things pre-and-post suspension upgrades and at least give a fair review of another product, unless somebody knows where there's a rental.

 

Hey jbarnhart, I'm sorry for not reading your post better... I was on my way to a funeral in haste when I wrote the post... I just got back in after my two day 900 mile whirlwind trip.

I can really appreciate someone you has the competence and left brained abilities to be an engineer while at the same time also has a right brain... "no pun intended!" that can sense more than what is spelled out on paper.

Please accept my apologies for jumping in haste.... yes, I thought you were the enemy!... the ones who can't believe fat meat is greasy because just they can't understand how its so.... the enemy are the ones who trust figures more than people.

I've been burn't enough by people too, but its a bit easier once you learn to see through the character flaws of those who delight in confusing and misleading others.

Someone may not agree with my conclusions about something, but I never knowingly mislead anyone and I tend to find it offensive after beating someone over the head over and over, they still don't get it.

I also extend my apologies to those who are new and have never had the chance to toss the ideas around yet to come to a reasonable conclusion.

But many don't have a clue because they never bought and tried the plate because they probrably don't even own a prius because they can't afford one, or they are so cheap they squeak and won't spend a dime unless its well accounted for in advance, yet they will get out here and try to influence others?

These are trouble making trolls or even veterans that have already made up thier mind and only want to spread thier mistrust and skepticism to make themselves somehow feel better about thier own decision of fear as to not try it..... those are the guys that disqust me.... not those who are truly interested and trying to make an honest desicsion.


Some really may not care about the extra ride and better suspension... thats thier choice and its ok... just don't try and mislead others into thinking the plate is bunk when they haven't even tried it thierself... thats all.
I know there are tires out there that do a better job, but I have chose to pass because they all seem to take a mpg hit to do so, but the plate has absolutely no negative effects by using it.

Its funny how this thread has been going of forever.. or at least the discussion about the plate.

You would think by now it would be common knowledge its awesome and thats that?

But all the evidence of those who have tried and are pleased will not sway those who cannot believe.

Whats the saying?.. there is none so blind who "will not" see?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Aug 4 2006, 12:44 AM) [snapback]297513[/snapback]</div>

"The enemy"? You really need to chill, dude. It's just a piece of metal. Your village isn't under attack.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Aug 4 2006, 12:44 AM) [snapback]297513[/snapback]</div>

I was trying to recall what this statement reminded me of, and finally remembered.

It was from an article by Ron Suskind in the October 2004 NY Times. He was speaking to a "senior adviser" in the Bush administration; Suskind related the following regarding the conversation:

"The aide said that guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world works really anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 4 2006, 06:49 AM) [snapback]297623[/snapback]</div>

That sounds like the same people who refuse to believe anything exists unless they condone, approve and understand it.

The same crowd says if a tree falls and they didn't see it.. it didn't really happen.

Their reality is where the universe revolves around them.
They cannot trust anything that is not created from an emenation of thier presence and psyche.

The same bunch is ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Tons of knowledge but total fools.

The world if full of them......

And trying to sell them something thats good for them is a joke, because they didn't create it, they can't trust it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Aug 4 2006, 11:58 AM) [snapback]297693[/snapback]</div>

You seem to be having problems with logic, as your first-line statement has absolutely nothing to do with the statement to which you are responding.

A better analogy is that when person A claims that a tree fell in a particular location and person B points out that the location is in the middle of the ocean, Person A gets huffy because their story is not accepted at face value. More exactly, Person A extols the virtues of the cure-all they just bought from the traveling salesman at the back of the wagon and gives person B an angry look when asked what's in it.