BT Stiffening Plate Review

I am quite happy with the handling of my "06. My other car is a Volvo Cross Country which handles well.

The fact that Brian has chosen, so far, not to do a double blind comparison of a BTplate equiped Prius vs. a stock Prius is evidence enough for me not to install his plate. Here is my reasoning:

1. I assume Brian is happy with the present controversy between those who are happy with the purchase and those who question it.

2. I assume that Brian knows the difference (if any) would turn out to be so small as to diminish the controversy that presently exists.

3. The expense and difficulty of doing a double blind comparison would be so small as this would not deter doing it if it would be to the advantage of selling more BT plates.

My blessings and encouragement to Brian and all who feel a benefit from installing this plate. The fact that your faith does not transfer to me is my problem, not yours.

 

Hello Allandale. When I first designed and tested our stiffening plate all I did was A-B comparisons between driving with it installed and comparing it to the factory part. I even had drivers that regularly drive high performance cars drive my Prius with the plate installed and then with the factory plate WITHOUT telling them which plate was on the car.

The conscencous was that with the stiffening plate installed the car had a more predictable feel and handled pavement irregularaties better without the rear end of the car getting tossed around. Even when driving the car normally one can feel that the car is better "planted" and feels more solid. This makes sense because we are stiffening the body and allowing the suspension to do its intended job.

As far as me being "happy" with the controversy why would you say that when you do not even know me? I perfer everyone to get along and that everyone should feel free to voice their opinion. The fact that many of our customers enjoy the benifits with our stiffening plate and voice it here speaks volumes for its effectiveness and I would like to personally thank each of them for taking the time to do so. I have never asked or solicited anyone to say "nice" things here.

If you are happy with the way your Prius handles the way it is, my advice is to just leave it alone and enjoy what you have. For those that want a better handling car with a more refined ride then our stiffening plate would be worth a look.

It should also be noted that with each purchase of our stiffening plate you are not only improving your car but you are also contributing to PriusChat.com which is an awesome site with a group of probably the nicest people around!!





<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Aug 2 2006, 05:24 PM) [snapback]296546[/snapback]</div>

 

Allannde, that's a lot of assumptions... and you know what they say when someone assumes things, it makes an "nice person" out of "u" and "me". But, for the sake of contrast, let me play that game as well...

I assume Brian knows that the BT Brace improves handling. I also assume that Brian knows that drivers are different and not all drivers will feel the difference. Therefore, I assume that Brian knows a double blind test would not necessarily quell the controversy because some drivers will feel the difference and some will not.

I know the BT Brace made a difference in my car but I can understand how some drivers may not notice the difference. Here's an analogy... some people will pay premium price for premium chocolate because they can tell the difference. Other people can't tell the difference between Hersey's and Scharffen Berger so it would be wasteful for them to spend the premium price. However, just because some people can't discern the difference, doesn't mean that there isn't any difference.

 

There's a difference between chocolates??





Here's an analogy... some people will pay premium price for premium chocolate because they can tell the difference. Other people can't tell the difference between Hersey's and Scharffen Berger so it would be wasteful for them to spend the premium price. However, just because some people can't discern the difference, doesn't mean that there isn't any difference.
[/quote]

 

my nephew returned from Germany a few months back loaded with chocolate. i would find it hard to believe that anyone with functioning taste buds could not tell the difference

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 1 2006, 11:55 PM) [snapback]296048[/snapback]</div>

Hi ScottR,

The Prius has that hatchback. And the rear axle is attached a little aft of where the big void in the top of the body opens up. So, rather than having a box section, you have a double U fork. The fork tines can go side to side. The plate bridges the tines of the fork, near the root of the tines.

When the load is placed on the axles, due to side winds, or maneuvering, the fork bends sideways as the load from the wheels is transmitted through the axle attachment points. The axle has rubber mountings, so it does not provide much counter force to the tines bending. Bridge the fork with a plate securely mounted into each fork tine, and the fork will no longer rack as much.

I think that is why the change is dramatic. This explanation is simplistic, as the Prius is a very complex 3 D structure. But I think the basic premise is close to right. I think the basic issue is that the Prius has that Nice Big Hatchback, and that takes a big chunk of strutural web out of the chasis. Another car chasis that is like this is the Corvette -- which is coincidental, no? Might be some luck involved in Brian previously producing these plates for Corvettes, and then the Prius came along also with the big hatchback too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Aug 2 2006, 06:30 PM) [snapback]296621[/snapback]</div>

Sounds like you got caught up in the chocolate and missed the analogy. People don't have the same sensitivity to taste... or to touch or smell or sound.... or to how a car handles.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Aug 2 2006, 08:38 PM) [snapback]296670[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for the reply, donee.

I understand the theory of the plate, and I would agree if there was no OEM brace there, that putting something in would improve handling. But the chassis does have a plate there already. Adding cross-bracing up front (between the forward wheels) would clearly make a change, but I'm having trouble seeing how two very similar components in the same location can have that much of a difference in impact.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dancekat59 @ Aug 2 2006, 02:14 PM) [snapback]296609[/snapback]</div>

Hi dancekat59

An interesting reply!

When someone can show me an objective report of how much difference this plate makes I might very well add it to the long list of mods I have made. But it is hard to know who to follow when reports are so divergent. I am quite sure the controversy which keeps the issue alive is not hurtful to interest in the product.

I am also quite sure that those who support the plate are very sincere and happy with their choice.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allannde @ Aug 2 2006, 09:08 PM) [snapback]296693[/snapback]</div>

The thing that bugs me is how much is attributed to the plate: that, for example, the ride is smoother over bumps. I can't see how that is possible even if you compared no plate at all to either the OEM or the BT plate--it's a claim for ride stiffness which, to me, is almost exclusively a function of suspension and tires. Torsion of the frame, which is what a plate (OEM or otherwise) is meant to address, shouldn't have anything to do with how smooth the ride is.

I find this unfortunate: I don't think such claims are at all relevant to whether the BT plate works or not. The plate would effect body roll (and only body roll, I believe), and attributing all these other seeming miracles to it seems to detract from a possibly legitimate benefit (talk about psychological effects!).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 2 2006, 09:21 PM) [snapback]296700[/snapback]</div>

I have about 3500 miles on my Prius. I received my plate about a week ago, but haven't had a chance to install it ( I crew on a Grand American racing team). I'm getting back on next Monday, and will install it brace on Tuesday or Wednesday. I have a couple of areas with nasty expansion plates crossing over the Long Island Expressway that are going to be my first before and after test. There are also a couple of local roads with reverse camber on some curves that will also be checked.

Not totally objective, but I will do my best to see if there is a real difference in handling. In theory, stiffening the coupling between the two sides of the chassis should reduce the steering effect of the two rear wheels being mechanically out of phase.

More to come!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 2 2006, 06:21 PM) [snapback]296700[/snapback]</div>

bottom line is I don't completely understand why it does all it does, nor did I before I bought it... I took a chance... I'm with Dave.... it doesn't warrant enough money to worry about it.. I even bought two at once.

I figured if it didn't work.. so what?

If you can't afford it, don't buy it and you'll never know and maybe won't miss it.

I didn't miss a cell phone till I got one, nor cable internet or TV... but if you get it and notice a difference, you won't want to give it up.


To all the skeptics that want to pick apart speeches and meanings and implications etc etc... don't buy it and don't worry about it.

I'm think I've spent far too much energy trying to help you figure it out.. it you don't want it.. it's no sweat off me and I have nothing to gain either way.

I just like sharing when I find something cool... I'm just as quick to tear it apart if I"m dissapointed..... but concerning the BT plate, quite the opposite happened.. I was expecting very little and got more.

I"m done about this subject for now because I feel that most who are skeptic have already made up thier mind.... so they need to forget trying to talk themselves in to it anymore and forget about it.

Excuse me for trying to help, and I'm sorry you skeptics are so skeptical.... you surely have missed out on many many things thus far in this live, barring the plate.

You wouldn't like it anyway, because most "another generalization" want everything for nothing.. so if you have to pay for it, you will want even more than everything.....

If I was Brian, I wouldn't want such people to buy my product, because it will never be good enough.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(syclone @ Aug 2 2006, 07:27 PM) [snapback]296736[/snapback]</div>

Its nice you're trying to be helpful... but it doesn't really matter... if you like it, the skeptics will not believe you anyway......... after so many raves for so long... why would yours make a difference?..

Some people honestly can't believe in anything they cannot understand... they are afraid of everything they cannot control..... too bad so sad :mellow:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Aug 2 2006, 10:33 PM) [snapback]296737[/snapback]</div>

I'm sorry if you have no patience for someone who simply does not blindly confuse anecdotes with fact. It is not simply being a "skeptic" to ask for basic evidence--either experimental or theoretical (based on sound theory, that is).

Never once did I say "it's junk, don't buy it." All I have asked for in this thread is some reason to believe the hype. I would be more than happy to buy the device if someone could give me reason to believe it could work. If assertions are made, they must be well-constructed.

An assertion that the Prius is a "very light car" for a vehicle of its dimensions? Simply not true, and the falseness of the statement can be demonstrated by simply pointing out its weight and dimensions as contrasted to a car of similar external dimensions but much lighter weight.

But even if it were an unusually light car, there was no demonstration that a stiffening plate--which does reduce flexion along the longitudinal axis--would not give you "the benefit of the weight of the other half of your car to help hold you down and steady." It simply would not; the statement does not make sense.

Donee's post I accept as cogent--as far as the benefit of having a stiffening plate goes. What I still do not see is, given the presence of the factory plate, how a different plate of about the same dimensions in exactly the same place, though possibly a little stiffer, would make a noticeable difference. I point again to the link I posted; I don’t know if this can accurately be called a placebo effect, but it underscores the concerns I have with the plate's defenders.

For what it could do (as per the claims, if not actual theory), I would be happy if someone could explain how it does, in fact, so do. In contrast, the claims that the plate reduces the feel of bumps and vibrations and that the suspension was caused to absorb more shock... that's simply not possible.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 2 2006, 08:12 PM) [snapback]296757[/snapback]</div>

Well, just because you don't understand how it works, it would be arrogant to conclude that it is "simply not possible" for the BT plate to improve the suspension of the Prius.

*I* am one of those people who claims my Prius rides better and the suspension does its job better with the BT plate, even at low speeds.

I am not impressionable. I am not an idiot. I am very much in tune with the handling of my car, and I have some basis of comparison since I own an Audi A8 and my previous car was a Mercedes Benz CLK320. I am an electrical engineer with a Master's degree from U.C. Berkeley. I don't claim to understand the physics of why the plate works as well as it does. But I know enough mechanical engineering to appreciate how complex a dynamic system like a car suspension is. And I am observant enough to notice what effects it has.

I'd like you to prove to me scientifically why it isn't possible for a stiffer chassis to result in a more effective suspension. If you can't prove it to a mathematical certainty (which of course you can't), I'll accept your honest assessment after you put the BT plate on YOUR car and try it out.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jbarnhart @ Aug 3 2006, 01:28 AM) [snapback]296838[/snapback]</div>

Do you have any metric besides your own SOTP?

Seems Darell is the only guy who has done a double-blind test. Have you? Come on and level the field a bit without taking the "holier than thou" ground.

 

Then I'm sure you would notice a difference, I recommend you buy the plate... if a couple of hundred bucks is too much for a risk, then I recommend not.

Being an enginneer, you have been programmed to not trust anything you cannot prove and run out on paper.

I do not have the expertise to help you there,... I took a chance when I bought mine.

Some people are very intelligent with the capability to attain great levels of knowledge, but are idiots and have no common sense and wisdom of "how" to use that knowledge to assimiliate and process the environment around them.
I'm not putting you into either classification, but I've seen enginneers who favor the idiot side before.... I trust you are not one of those.

Sorry, you'll have to learn to use a little faith in others here, and take a chance... its not that much money....

If your really so sensitive and in tune with your car... I trust the plate well enough to put myself on the line and give you overwhelming permission to come out here and tell the world I'm full of it if I'm wrong.

But like I said in a previous thread, you may be one of those who cannot trust in "anything" or anyone you cannot understand to control.

 

Interesting discussion. The very first thing I bought for our Prius - hours before the dealer called to tell me our Prius had arrived - was the BT stiffening plate. It's still sitting in the box.

I haven't installed it primarily for one reason - I've been generally very pleased with the way the car has handled. We've been using it for our daily commute up and down I-95 for a month now, and I know how it handles in certain situations - there are specific spots in the road that, due to constant traffic and construction, aren't anywhere close to what I would call smooth. I know where they are, I drive over the same road twice a day, and I know exactly how the Prius will handle these spots.

So, I'll be installing the plate later this month (if we get a break from the heat and if the car is sitting still long enough on a Saturday morning), and I'll do our usual daily commute over the same roads, and see for myself if there's a difference. If there's no difference, well, I guess I'll have a stiffening plate for sale - at a discount! And if there is a difference, it's money well spent, as we plan on keeping the Prius for quite some time.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Aug 3 2006, 07:37 AM) [snapback]296866[/snapback]</div>

Guys (and gals) - this is not an important enough issue to start a "jihad" over. How about someone who knows how - start a poll of BT plate users. I think it was pretty well established that at some time Toyota made a change to the factory plate and that before that change the BT plate definitely had a positive effect. So, let's limit the poll to users that own Prius's after that change (2005 -2006?). Questions in the poll could be Have you seen a difference in performance and handling. Was the difference enough to justify the price of the product? I know it's hard to get absolutes in a situation that may have a large subjective component, but the results of the poll would tend to point in the right direction.

If the poll is overwhelming in one or the other direction we may be able to determine whether the plate truly does work and the naysayers are just not "car people" (no insult intended), or the vendor is trying to reap a profit from a product whose usefullness has past.

 

Despite what some may choose to believe of me, I've been trying to approach this objectively. As such, I sent an email to Popular Mechanics Auto Clinic. To my pleasant surprise, I just received a reply from PM Senior Automotive Editor Mike Allen. I referenced that external link I'd posted a couple of times above (where Darrell has his wife test drive the car). Mr. Allen's reply, in full, is as follows:

"I fail to see how the skinny low-rolling-resistance tires on the Prius can
generate enough torsional loading on the chassis for this minor upgrade to
make any perceptible difference.

I wouldn't spend my money on this, and I think this reviewer's blind
testing with his wife reinforces that.

MA"

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike @ Aug 3 2006, 01:52 AM) [snapback]296841[/snapback]</div>

Either you don't know what a double-blind test is, or you didn't read Darrell's account.

Darrell himself (i.e. "the researcher") always knew if the plate was installed or not. Only his wife (i.e. "the subject") was unaware of the change. Thus it was never a "double blind" experiment, which demands that the researcher and subject are unaware of the plate's installation status. Also, Darrell never claimed his wife was particularly observant about changes in suspension quality.

I do not dispute Darrell's results -- for him the plate is a no-op. I have utmost respect for Darrell and like a true scientist he described his experiment in enough detail that the reader can make up his own mind about the conclusions. From reading his account I concluded that his wife probably does not pay much attention to handling characteristics.

What gets my dander up is people who claim "it can't possibly work" when they obviously don't know enough to make such a claim. To me, that's the ultimate in "holier than thou" attitude.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 3 2006, 09:22 AM) [snapback]297000[/snapback]</div>

I suppose you have faith in the answer of someone who doesn't even own a Prius, has never driven one later than an '03 (or else he would have known the Prius doesn't use "skinny low profile tires" anymore), and has never seen the plate in question.

Did you ask Mr. Allen if he's ever heard of chassis stiffening braces at all? And if cars such as Corvettes benefit from them for sanctioned race events, why can't a passenger car improve its handling on normal city streets?

Believe who you want. I'm done with you.