Featured Bolt the cannibal and used hybrid/plug-in generator

i know, you got all the chargers, and we got all the batteries. but i have no idea when it will show up around here, i'm figuring on next summer. by then, hopefully we'll have prime, bolt, ionique and with any luck, mitsi.

 

don't you mean one other manufacturer is heading that way? afaik, only Mitsu sells a plugin SUV - the Outlander. Nothing from Ford, or Toyota, or Honda etc.

considering the several years that many referred to the Prius as a Halo vehicle, that label affixed to the Bolt is kind of a premature call, don't you think?

well according to this article;
Toyota is planning long-range battery-powered electric cars for 2020 as its hydrogen fuel cells cars are failing | Electrek
Toyota is boasting they will finally be putting together a team - to research, design & build a (hopefully) high production EV. Their hope is to have it ready by 2020. Yikes - 186 miles is only 50% better than their 1990's EV rav4 ... and IT was a non aero suv running on nickel metal hydride batteries.

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The Tortoise and the Hare

To be a "halo" vehicle, the object of praise must be only a token. The fact that Prius sold in mainstream volume and at a profit negates any such claim. Volt on the other hand, never even came close to the same sales level, especially since it has had a tax-credit dependency it's entire lifetime. What do you foresee for Bolt?

 

that's the best part. i can lease a bolt, and if toyota gets off the pot, i can move on. if not, there'll be other choices.
so far, i've seen pip (disappointment) prime (disappointment) what's up next? we'll see.

 

Volt never really diversified. There hasn't been any attempt to offer another model, one actually attempting to attract ordinary consumers... as Toyota's other HSD offerings have. That's a fundamental difference not to be overlooked.

In fact...

2016_Toyota_C-HR_HYBRID by john1701a posted Dec 17, 2016 at 9:16 PM

Toyota continues with that diversification effort. You want something that sits up higher, but takes advantage of the same system design as Prius, there you go.

 

How do you recover the development costs for such a different vehicle over 1k units per month? Granted many of the body components are shared. But just the power train engineering costs have to be staggering.

(I once managed a 1k/year product and I know all too painfully what the development costs added to the materials costs.)

 

To me, the Volt always seemed to ride on the coat tails of the Prius series, all they did was make a pure EV mode with plug-in. But it never really found a solid following. Now, the Bolt has a unique opportunity to be GM's lifestyle EV. Long range, decent space, and solid performance. However, from all the chatter articles I have read about Toyota, they seem to be developing multiple Hybrid/EV powertrains currently which may lead to a new and complete lineup of Prii and Primes alike Considering the economy that our 4th gen Prius members have been reporting, an EV achieving 100 mpg-e doesn't seem like a great leap from the high 60's in mpg from a much less expensive car.

 

Easy you don't. GM has lost 40 billion since the bailout (MT). They can't continue like this forever.

 

The Prius c and v outsell the Volt easily

GOOD CAR BAD CAR: Toyota Prius C Sales Figures


GOOD CAR BAD CAR: Toyota Prius V Sales Figures

And these are models in need of a refresh, I have no doubt that the dip in sales is from the 4th gen and the prime. However the newly redesigned Volt should be a sales leader instead of dragging behind old models. This seems like 2008 GM again, too many promises too late.

 

For a reference I have posted the Volts sales numbers, oddly enough sales always go up around the end of the year. Blow out red tag sales maybe?

GOOD CAR BAD CAR: Chevrolet Volt Sales Figures

 

The rate at which they bring cars to the market.

Well, two mode had already failed by that point. Toyota not rolling out the PiP nationwide was a good business move, and GM not selling a mid-size hybrid SUV because the hybrid system cost didn't come down is a betrayal of trust, right?

2008 sounds familiar for some reason. What is it? Oh, the beginning of the Great Recession in which GM went bankrupt and the Saturn division got axed. Surely that had no bearing on models coming to market.

GM is going with diesel for the Equinox at this point. For those, albeit few, that actually make a SUV work, diesel does have some advantages over hybrid.

Have you forgotten two-mode hybrids? You do like to bring it up as an example of GM's failures. Which it was by being too costly.

Diesel fanboys were a steady source of income for VW for years. The Cruze diesel is meant to mine some of that. The 1.6L it has is also going into the Equinox, so the Cruze won't be shouldering all the cost.

The Cruze automatics already have start/stop, and the new transmission the diesel will have also supports it. As I've said, the hybrid-ICE line is going to blur.

Do not conflate the fuel with the engine. Much of the renewable fuel research involves fuels that run in a compression ignition engine. Throwing out the diesel engine and stopping the improvement of its emission systems could close doors on renewable options.

For completeness, I believe Volvo actually beat Mitsubishi on that front, but admit there is a price difference.

The Volt went on sale in 2010. There was the ELR, which even GM admitted wasn't going to do well. Then we got the gen2 Volt, the Malibu hybrid, and the CT6 PHEV coming in the spring.

The first Prius went on sale in 1997. About 7 or 8 years later we got the Highlander hybrid, which was an overpriced power hybrid. We finally got a Rav4 hybrid 19 years after the first Prius. North America might not get the hybrid C-HR at this time.(this is what I refered too by "any speed")

By spreading the development costs to spin off models. John may not think GM is doing that fast enough, but it is happening.

Then plug in incentives on the manufacturer end also are a factor. The first Volt was earning ZEV credits, which meant GM didn't have to buy as many from Tesla. Plus there is the effect on CAFE.

Like many plug ins, a peak in sales at the end of the year can be simply due to people wanting to get the tax credit for that year.
Truck and SUV sales have been doing well this year, so GM and Ford have been putting discounts on all their cars in order to keep their CAFE up.[/QUOTE]

 

if renewable fuels can be made to pollute as little as solar and wind, i'm all for them. until then, throw the diesels out!

 

If you think big (medium and heavy trucks) nothing is nearly as efficient in terms of dollar per mile or ghg per mile than an efficient diesel. Here their is plenty of money for SCR and particulate filters (real ones not the vw cheating system). In Europe because of subsidized (less taxed) diesel fuel they have been pushed into lower priced lower mileage cars where you need to cut corners to be priced less than a hybrid.

Why not leave people with a choice, but keep checking for cheating. IMHO plug-in tech is what will fill the role of less fuel and less pollution in a decade, but advances in hybrid or diesel are possible.

 

I really don't have any problem with diesels, my problem was with VW. I drove TDIs and if GM had the first Cruze diesel out at the time, I would have traded the VW in on it. Instead, I decided on taking a chance on a car that the diesel owners bashed, the Prius.

I took one for a test drive and despite all the hyperbole about batteries, bought it. I used to mess with the EV button a lot. I got an e-mail from Toyota offering deals on PiPs, so I went to check them out. Even though the dealer didn't have a single one charged up, I figured it was a step up on the Prius and bought it. I got the car home, charged it up and took it for a ride. Hey, this EV thing isn't bad. The only downside, in my opinion, with the PiP was that it used just about any excuse to turn the ICE on. Then, there's the Volt.

I was at the Chevy dealer with a friend and a salesman asked me if I wanted a test drive. The battery was full, yada, yada, yada, bought it on the spot. I can't complain, it fits my needs. I'm currently at 72% EV, which was 74% before my trip to Virginia. If I owned a Gen II Volt, I may improve that some, but that's about it. As it stands, the Bolt still won't help me with my out of state trips. The Prime wouldn't allow me to have an all EV commute, so I'm sticking with my poor little Volt.

By the way, if I had stuck with my impressions of my dad's Corona's and the troubles he went through with them, I would never have purchased a Toyota.

 

Toyota clearly stated from day one that Prius PHV was designed exactly as the market had requested, for it to be a PLUG-IN HYBRID. That history was documented in great detail back then, as it was playing out by me... so many years later, I could prevent innocent comments like yours from getting distorted by the "looking back long after the fact" perspective.

Volt was designed to serve as an EV with a backup power-source, to prevent "range anxiety" concerns. That idea fell apart though. The system ended up being far more of a "blended" hybrid than the original vision of it being a "series" type. The gas engine was needed in the cold and it served as more than just a generator. Sales didn't "leap frog" Prius either.

So, in a way, Volt really was a game changer. But rather than changing the game as intended (becoming an EV leader), it got stuck between the plug-in hybrid and electric-only vehicles. That became an identity-crisis over time, leading to uncertainty of intended market as the gen-2 rolled out. That technology worked, but wasn't configured in a way to attract ordinary buyers.

That's why the lower-cost approach of Prius Prime is really beginning to stir interest. That idea of augmenting the hybrid system is no longer the focus; instead, we're seeing more of a "Volt done right" configuration. Why? It's because the market changed their request. The EV drive is indeed what's desired, as GM had hoped. However, their is an unwillingness to pay a great deal more for that... hence Toyota's newest effort. They are striving for more of a balance of purchase priorities.

 

and the beat goes on...