Featured Bolt the cannibal and used hybrid/plug-in generator

Mr. Google Knows

 

What does "really climb" actually represent? Are you talking $4 per gallon? What does "some type" actually represent? Are you talking $1,000 off MSRP? I'm tired of having to point out horribly vague posts so often. Remember what happened in the past from not providing detail? Let's try to be constructive. That means addressing the why & how.

Discounting costs less than advertising. It's an effective means of getting loyal customers to switch from their usual choice to trying something new. The price of gas doesn't even have to come into play then. For that matter, neither does the tax-credit. It's a compelling enticement to draw interest that would otherwise be a missed opportunity.

Remember, the ultimate goal is growth. That means getting more than just early adopters to purchase. The low-hanging fruit (enthusiasts taking advantage of tax-credit incentives) is in no way any part of the mainstream tally. Look at how GM has struggled to reach beyond that initial group of buyers... hence the cannibal concern.

Toyota is striving to avoid that same trap by offering something with a compelling sales price. It's a configuration actually capable of competing with traditional vehicles.

 

Then why it is so unusual across makes and models when a new generation comes out ?

 

that's right - so if a company's missing the corp average fuel economy by 3 or 4 mpg, the $14per every .1gallon is over $500per car. If you're trying to sell a million cars then you just kissed off $½bil profit. If they try & pass it onto the consumer, they're less competitive with the other manufacturer.
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Yes, but Toyota is no where near 3-4 MPG under CAFE. A 25 MPG fleet CAFE is somewhere in the range of 20 MPG on the window sticker. This is why I said that if the fine exists at all for Toyota it is trivial and most certainly comes no where near the $1000 rebate. You also have to keep in mind that the CAFE calc is a weighted harmonic mean so the few Prime sales are not going to move the needle much.

 

My understanding is that there are two targets that a manufacturer has to hit for the ZEV program. One is a number of the actual ZEV credits that they get for selling BEVs and FCEVs. These are the credits that can be sold, and PHEVs no longer earn them. The other is the percentage of their that meets ZEV program requirements. Cars that earn actual credits count for that, but so do other low emission cars and technologies.

The mix of how many of those low emission car and technology types count towards the fleet ZEV 'score' varies over the program's life. In the beginning PZEV cars, like Subarus, were counted, but now they can only be a smaller part of the manufacturer's ZEV fleet, if they are still counted for it. PHEV's like the Prime will count for this fleet percentage without earning ZEV credits.

Not only do they have a high CAFE MPG, but each plug in sold counts for more than one car when calculating the fleet average; IIRC the multiplier ranges from 1.1 to 1.7.

So the 2018 Prius will no longer count, but PHEVs are T(transitional)ZEV.

There is a trading scheme for CAFE. Emerging Evidence on the CAFE Credit Trading Program | Resources for the Future
It allows trading between car and truck fleets, with banking to allow the use of credits 5 years into the future or pass from the year earned, and the ability sell credits to others.

 

Right you are -- for the new CAFE that started in 2012. The link you posted shows that Toyota has oodles of CAFE credits banked and it does not look like anybody is buying.

 

one thing we do know, they sure ain't spending any money on advertising.

 

Vague.

 

in that case, it's cheaper to give them away than pay for Super Bowl ads.

 

I will wait for my big discount. Lol 200 miles it really what we need.

Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.

 

toyota has credits banked, but wants to use them against future deficits.

Somehow in this thread we have happened upon the innovators dilemma. If you create better tech, then it may cannibalize your last sales. In a competitive market, you don't release it, you become history as competitors will. Cars are an oligopoly, so they can conspire to hide the latest tech, if everyone plays. Well Tesla didn't agree to play along, now toyota will need to come out with plug-ins too.

Think about 3 years from now. Will GM sell more volts on their own, or a combination of volts and bolts, and hopefully other cars developed using voltec technology. Its a no brainer to GM that wants to use plug-ins to off set trucks for cafe to inovate if they can.

Good for them for coming out with the bolt. Will it be economically sucessful on its own (if we don't include good will, marketing, etc) probably not. But it is a second baby step in the right direction for the company that killed the ev-1, and probably better in just about every way than an ev-1.

 

Everything about the EV1 was spelled out from the beginning. It was an experimental lease car that would not be offered for sale.

 

Tax-Credits will be in the phaseout stage then. Think about how growth will be achieved with subsidy money gone. Sales will be a challenge just to maintain.

GM desperately needs to offer a plug-in SUV. No offset nonsense. Just do it already. We see the other automakers heading in that direction.

As nice as Bolt may be for the EV push, it's clearly another halo vehicle.

 

toyota needs to offer a plug in suv. and a 150-200 mile bev prius, with a fully open hatch and 5 seats.

eventually, tax credits will not be needed, as battery and tech prices come down.

 

Often, when new tech (expensive) for cars comes about, owners sell their old Tech - to move up to the latest and greatest. This leave Surplus old Tech for someone to buy. The cheaper price often entices someone into the market that would never pay the higher price. Old prius, volt, tesla, bolt, i3, & new buyers. Keep the new stuff coming & canabalism be damned.

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RAV4 Prime is quite realistic. The technology is being established and the hybrid has been well received. Toyota is clearly pursuing that endeavor.

From GM, there's been avoidance. Cruze wasn't offered as a hatchback (which had been extremely popular in Europe) to avoid cannibalizing Volt sales. Equinox we be offered as a diesel, rather than a hybrid for what?

Some us are tired of playing kick the can.

 

Careful Bob, your hat might transmute to tin. It would likely have been easy to have one of the first for this press release to be anything but a Spark EV or even a Volt.

California is ground zero for the ZEV program, and there are generous plug in incentives in addition to the federal tax credit. The state was the first to get the gen2 Volt, the Prime, and likely every other plug in that has recently come out.

No clue on what Prius it was. Perhaps a gen4 that the person came to dislike after a year, or a gen1 in which the owner has been waiting for an affordable 200+mile BEV.

The Spark EV and i3 could have easily been leases that weren't worth holding onto with the current used plug in market. The Bolt is an upgrade to the Spark EV, and it is thousands less than any i3. The Bolt has more non-stopping range than the new i3 REx, and let's be honest, most people will opt for a larger car for longer trips.

And Mitisubishi has no bearing on such decisions, correct?

Any evidence to back up that Cruze claim, or is it just an individual analysis?

Hatchbacks weren't historically big sellers in the US. Most car buyers prefer a sedan. Honda had stopped selling Civic and Accord hatchbacks for awhile. So did Toyota in regards to the Corolla, and when they did bring it back, it got a whole new name. The Corolla iM only got the Corolla nameplate because Scion failed. The Cobalt that the Cruze replaced never had a hatchback here.

The Cruze hatchback has arrived, and the diesel will soon. As for SUVs, no power split hybrid one has been as capable as the cheaper to buy ICE model when it came to payload and towing. A small diesel, the Equinox is getting the same 1.6L that the Cruze is, might be the best solution for that at a reasonable price.

 

There's a lot of people around that still rather drive a diesel than a hybrid/PHEV/EV and a stick at that. They a patiently waiting for the new GM diesels.