Featured Bolt the cannibal and used hybrid/plug-in generator

Tesla has accomplished a lot in a very short amount of time but part of me can't help but wonder if it's hype. Tesla is pretty posh right now among those who can afford them and they are not terrible on the eyes. What Tesla lacks is appeal to average Joes, something that an 60k plus EV will not appeal to. Bolt is a step in the right direction and imagine soon Toyota and others will follow.

 

true, but the model 3 will be 35k? if they can't accomplish that, they will run out of market. i think they know that.

 

It'll all depend on the true cost and availability of the Model 3 and when it'll begin sales.

 

no question. that's why i call it smoke and mirrors. not a negative, just, i can't buy one.

 

As I read this thread, I got to thinking. How many of us really used a spreadsheet when buying a car in the last few years of low gas prices? I'll confess I did when gas was $4+ but go back and use the same spreadsheet today and my decision doesn't make sense financially. I'd have been better off driving the relatively low mileage perfect shape CRV I had and taking so much less depreciation than on any new car. Even 20 MPG difference doesn't cover the depreciation difference over the miles I drive at the prices gas has been. Oh, in another 4 years I'll be close as long as Toyota doesn't kill the v and its depreciation gets much worse.

So what is the attraction now if not financial? Different, allows us to feel good, early adapter, a certain amount of altruism, just want a new car. And then the justifications set in. In the CRV to Prius v transition, I got all those fuzzy things without having to give up a bit of room or utility. I can take the v anywhere the CRV would have gone with the same load and no different fueling availability, time or difficulty. My cake and eat it too. Except financially.

This weekend I had Xmas presents spread all over the cargo area and even one of the rear seats down. I made 5 100 mile RTs in 6 days. Each of those trips but one could have been done in a Bolt. I still have to take the 6' tree to the recycler this week. It is just those exceptions that cause a pause before Bolting. And no dealer within 50 miles. Its my car and I have to have the utility car.

Pity the poor product planners. Throw in the uncertainty of the regulatory and tax environments as well as energy source uncertainty as to price and its effect on the buying psyche and they have a devil of a job guessing at what makes sense.

(Interesting article in this issue of Fortune on the economics of individual clean power versus utility sized clean power. Musk versus Buffet. Lobbyists galore and subsidies uncertain.)

 

yes, i'll go along with most of your reasons. i really, really, really like driving ev, it's so cool, and doesn't get old.
planning and building a bev, is much more complicated than a gasser. kind of ironic, since maintaining a bev is so much simpler.
but instead of one size gas tank fits almost all, battery size is eventually going to have to come in many different flavors, unless there's a paradigm change in battery tech.

 

It makes more sense to purchase these vehicles now while dealerships struggle to sell them. We know gas prices go up and down but it's almost as if we forget it can. An example of this coworker of mine purchased a Prius three years ago to save money driving to work. Gas was pretty high. A month ago he traded it in on a Tundra. I don't have to tell you all this because we obviously are all conscious of this because we are here talking about EVs. It seems people justify the cost when prices are high but when prices dip low they forget how much they saved and they still continue save because that gap is still there. Give it another year and hybrids and EVs will repopulate the roadways.

 

But from a strictly financial standpoint, if you add up the depreciation on a new car even in today's market and with incentives in that first year plus the gas at whatever price you choose and compare that sum to the depreciation and gas prices on the one you own, how do you come out ahead?

It is reliability (or the fear of declining reliability), change in circumstances (income, family size, etc), envy of the neighbors new car or just want for something new and shiny that I'd guess drive most new car purchases. Not finances.

You want the financial compromise, let someone else take the first few years depreciation hits. Buy used. From someone whose changed circumstances motivate the sale.

4 years, $12k depreciation for my Prius. Had I kept my prior car, it would have depreciated $3k. No way MPG figures make up that difference for this 8k/year driver. Not to mention lower taxes and insurance.

 

depends on what you own, and how much you're pouring into repairs. there is a point of no return for all cars.

 

I'm talking about people who are throwing these cars away right because gas is cheap and flying to the dealerships to buy trucks and SUVs at overinflated prices while hybrids are dirt cheap because nobody wants a hybrid when gas is cheap. im referring to used market, there's not much room on the new car prices. As for my coworker his needs for transportation did not change. He drives even more now. It seems like a waste of money.

 

What was your previous vehicle?

 

Actually two vehicles. A CRV and a Porsche Boxster. Both sold when I bought the Prius. I got tired of shuttling cars with one garage spot. (in my prior residence, we had 2 driveways.)

But my comments that I'd have been better off financially to have kept the car related only to the CRV. The Boxster was a mid-life toy though it still got 26 MPG on the highway. The CRV around 22. When sold the CRV had just had new tires and a battery and was perfect at around 60k miles IIRC. So it should have easily lasted another half dozen reliable years even as my only car. By that time the v will have depreciated around $20k I'd guess.

 

Tough act to follow! The CRV holds its resale very well! Hybrids in general have a tough time I think due to public perception. I know before I bought my C most people think hybrids are experimental even though they've been around for 20 years. I imagine the C won't retain its value like a Corolla but I couldn't live with a sedan.

 

Sorry to side track the entire forum.

Back to Bolt,
GM has had models be similar but find different markets. As has been seen with the Spark and the Sonic. Both technically sub-compacts but both completely different. It's possible that the Bolt/Volt relationship could be similar. However, it's hard to compare the two whenever one has yet to hit the streets.

On the Volt,

The thing that I like best and least about the Volt is the styling. While attractive and very pleasing it looks like a modded Chevy Cruze. Nondescript and it's hard to build a model and a sub brand line when it's spending its time looking like a ordinary compact sedan.

 

Hehehe true. It'll need the fender skirts

 

Horses for courses. The thing I like most. As one who owned a '65 Ford Falcon, everything else is an improvement.

 

Traditional vehicle sales are also crushing hybrid vehicles. The best they've done is around 3% of new vehicle sales.

Plug in sales was over 1% of total new vehicle sales last month. While not as good as hybrid sales, that is better than what diesels were back in their heyday of cheaper fuel and lower emission regulations.

Two brands should be enough for the US, but their likely was some solid reasons for keeping Buick here as they did with GMC. Remember, the other brands got axed during bankruptcy, so GM had some defendable reason for keeping. GMC was spared because axing it would have lead to losing more market share to Ford and others if GM's only personal truck brand was Chevy alone. The Chinese market was one I know of for Buick, perhaps there are others. Perhaps it will get axed in the future when the market in China is large enough to support the brand alone.

The draw for hybrids is in reducing fuel use, and in the American market, that means their success follows fuel prices. Inaddition to reduced fuel use, plug ins offer the option switch off of petroleum and also performance. The performance might not be sport car level, but it is different enough to impress those that have driven it. People aren't buying a Model S to just reduce fuel use. This gives plug ins a wider appeal over hybrids when it comes to sales growth.

Power hybrids offered performance, but they never sold well. Those following that path are switching to plug ins for the bigger performance boost.

If discussing looks, I agree about the Equinox, but on fuel use it is compares favorably to the Rav4. Many of GM's non-hybrids do.
Compare Side-by-Side

GM gave up the lead with their actions in regards to the EV1, but they were likely right about BEVs being too expensive back then. The Rav EV was $42,000 in 2002, or over $56k in 2016 dollars. Would there have been enough buyers to support producing the car since then until 2012 when the new one arrived?

I suspect many buying plug ins greatly care over which is the most efficient at this point, as long as it has the range they want. The Model S is the big seller, and the 2016 model could be as low as 89mpge.

Performance was part of what attracted BMW and M-B buyers to Tesla, and that is also an attractant for the average Joe.

The only complicated part of making a BEV is in getting the cost low enough. Other than that, it should be less complicated without emissions to worry about.

Cost was once an issue for ICE cars too, until the Model T arrived.

In addition to BEV vs PHEV, there is the sedan vs wagon profile that will draw particular buyers to the Volt or Bolt. There is also the issue of cost; $4000 is a sizable advantage to the Volt.

At the end of the day, the Volt is a modded Cruze. The gen1 was more distinctive in looks, but GM seems to be taking the tack of keeping their hybrids, plug or not, non-distinctive. Their only hybrid at this point is the Malibu. A car with odd looks can be a sales hit, but it is the vehicles with more conservative looks that reliably sell in numbers. Prius sales seem to appear to have gone as far as they can without higher fuel prices, and looking different didn't help either Insight.

Aside from that CUV concept, has there been any talk from GM about a Volt sub-brand?