Bladderectomy

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Jan 27 2007, 09:43 AM) [snapback]381691[/snapback]</div>

YES... Plus now, your vehicle emits more emissions than those big SUVs...

So, do the honorable thing, and strip that Prius of its HOV lane sticker! (For good measure, mail me the tax credit rebate too...)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 14 2006, 01:00 PM) [snapback]319717[/snapback]</div>

You keep making the assertion that the bladder was the cheapest way to achieve AT-PZEV or PZEV. How do you know this? Were you involved in designing the Prius and its fuel tank? How do you know it wouldn't achieve it w/o the bladder? As a side note, I found that it appears Toyota won an award from the Society of Automative Engineers of Japan for the bladder system at http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/environmental_rep/03/jyusho.html.

I've driven aforementioned Ford Foci PZEV as rentals a couple times.

As many others have noted here on PC, many of your posts just are slams against Toyota because you had a couple bad experiences w/your Prius and claim to have lots of rattles.

As for 240sxer who's annoyed by the variance and there be only apparently ~10 gallons of usable gas in an "11.9 gallon" tank, perhaps he should bring a 2 gallon gas can with him when he fills up and fill that too. After driving say at least 1/4 "tank", he can add that remaining 2 gallons at home, extending his time between trips to the gas station.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Jan 28 2007, 06:48 PM) [snapback]382046[/snapback]</div>

It seems pretty obvious that a bunch of rubber is much easier than the other, more complex, systems that everyone else uses.

And I slam Toyota, and I defend Toyota. I'm sometimes pointing out that a lot of the Prius was done on the cheap (it was) and the drivetrain is an engineering masterpiece (it is).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jan 28 2007, 03:55 PM) [snapback]382069[/snapback]</div>

You still haven't told us you've proven that it wouldn't meet AT-PZEV standards without it. It seems more likely that Toyota was going above and beyond for US owners to reduce evaporative emissions.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Jan 30 2007, 03:19 AM) [snapback]382699[/snapback]</div>

How do other cars meet PZEV standards without bladders then? How do the Civic, Accord and Escape hybrids meet AT-PZEV without bladders?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jan 30 2007, 05:27 AM) [snapback]382733[/snapback]</div>

My point exactly. Cars can meet PZEV without the bladder. Why do you assert that the Prius HAD to have it in order to meet AZ-PZEV or PZEV and that it'd fail without it? Did you work on the design team? Did Toyota officially ever state this?

The 03 Camry (non-hybrid as it didn't exist yet) met PZEV standards per http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/news/update19.html. The 07 Camry does too per http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/en/gv/vsearch...ehicletypeid=16. I don't know for whether it did or didn't have a bladder.

The 05 Accord hybrid didn't meet AT-PZEV standards per http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Jan 31 2007, 04:09 AM) [snapback]383201[/snapback]</div>

I don't think I ever stated such a thing... all I've said, and it's speculation, is that the bladder was the cheapest way to meet PZEV standards. I don't think it's such a stretch... pardon the pun.

 

more complex... like toyota's sealed metal tank maybe? the hycam has one and if the info i read is correct, it's also AT-PZEV. it first came out with the hihy but i thought that was only SULEV. so there may have been improvements between generations of the metal tank too.

so they've come up with a better solution. the bladder was a stepping stone, i think. the prius itself is a stepping stone of sorts as well.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jan 31 2007, 06:02 AM) [snapback]383225[/snapback]</div>

Does your SO have information on the mechanism used in reading the guess gauge? I'm assuming a pressure sensor at the bottom of the tank, but if so is it near the front, rear, or middle of the tank.

It seems to me that a more reliable estimate of the remaining gas would be to have a plate below the bladder with three or more small scales to measure the weight of the bladder/fuel system to determine the remaining gas. Assuming the bladder collapses near the top, weighing the gas would be much more reliable than a pressure sensor in a system with a variable horizontal cross section.

I know that manufacturers do everything they can to reduce cost, but I would have been willing to pay easily $100 more for a fuel gauge that gives reliable readings.

Dave M.

 

it's a floating magnet in a tube, essentially. think it's nearer to the front but i haven't seen the diagram in a while.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jan 31 2007, 05:26 AM) [snapback]383218[/snapback]</div>

You did state it, see your from the post below.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 14 2006, 01:00 PM) [snapback]319717[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Jan 31 2007, 02:23 PM) [snapback]383364[/snapback]</div>

Yes... thank you for proving my point. I said it was the cheapest way to do it, not the only way to do it. I said there were other ways to do it, and wondered why Toyota didn't pursue a way that was less annoying to owners.

Again, thanks!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jan 31 2007, 12:59 PM) [snapback]383392[/snapback]</div>

Toyota did not do that to all their Prius vehicles.

Apparently the bladder system only affects those shipped to Yank and Cannuk markets. Correct ?

Cheers;

MSantos

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jan 31 2007, 09:07 AM) [snapback]383323[/snapback]</div>

Thanks. I'll have to search and see if I can find anything on it in the manuals.

Dave M.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jan 31 2007, 10:59 AM) [snapback]383392[/snapback]</div>

Sigh, you're asserting it was the cheapest way to meet PZEV. You haven't given any proof. Tell me how much it cost them to meet PZEV with and without employing a bladder.

I'm asserting that the bladder was not necessarily cheaper and wasn't necessarily needed at all in order to meet PZEV. It seems likely that Toyota was going above and beyond for US owners to reduce evaporative emissions.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Feb 1 2007, 03:39 AM) [snapback]383739[/snapback]</div>

I'm just stating what several people on this board, all more knowledgeable about the Prius than I am, have said... namely that the bladder is required for PZEV. Don't shatter my belief system and tell me that they're wrong!

And you tell me... which sounds cheaper? A rubber bladder or a sealed metal tank? The stepping stone or the more complex system, as galaxee put it?

 

I don't think the Priii in other countries that don't have the Bladder are PZEV.

So, maybe the cost issue goes like this:

Which is cheaper, put a fancy tank in every Prius worldwide, or just stick a Bladder in the ones you want to be PZEV and use the cheap tank elsewhere?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Betelgeuse @ Sep 11 2006, 08:50 AM) [snapback]317695[/snapback]</div>

Just my two cents for the record. You're right, but it's more than that. I'd never had problems filling my '06. That is, until I went on a cross-country road trip. Over the span of five states I went from my innocent experience of never having problems to a 50% failure rate on the trip.

In most cases I found that I could ease the pump into it by starting out very slow and then going faster. Sometimes I could even get it full open before I finished. Sometimes not. (It was kind of a game to me.) But this solution won't in any way work for pumps that are either 'on' or 'off'. It only works when you have a variable flow control.

But also in one instance nothing I did would work. The pump had worked just fine for the woman before me, but not for me. For me it was click click click click click click click regardless. So I tried a different pump at the same station and I was fine.

And also in another instance the pump seemed to work fine ... but as I drove off my pips gradually came up to only three quarters of a tank. By the time this finally registered on the dash I was back on the turnpike and thus a bit too late to top off at another pump. If the fuel gauge on a Prius was even remotely like a normal car's I'd have been able to spot it and top off before I got back on the turnpike.

(Some might wonder why 3/4 tank is so annoying, and in normal circumstances it wouldn't be. When you're driving across five states in one sitting however, every little delay that makes the day last longer wears on your nerves with a rather amplified effect from normal driving conditions.)

So I have to say, the problem isn't car to car. It's pump to pump. If you use the same pumps you're not going to see it happen. I've never even had a problem in my home state. It was only when I started crossing the country that I found it to be much worse in some states than others. And of the states I went through, Ohio was the worst.

So as they say, your milage may vary. And now that I'm back home I'm peachy keen again because my gas stations actually work.

But there is most definately a problem for some. And I've not seen this problem in other cars like I have the Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brandon @ Sep 12 2006, 01:00 PM) [snapback]318488[/snapback]</div>

Hey, that's about my annual milage too. The reason I commute so much is because to get the house that I have 50 miles away from my workplace I'd have to pay more than twice as much to be only 15 miles away. So I commute. At the time I made that decision gas was much cheaper. With current gas prices my solution was a Prius. Fortunately I have access to interstates that make the trip only an hour each way.

(And for the sickos that care about the math, I only work 5 days a week, but half of my fam is in another state so I do a lot of road trips. Plus I tend to travel to more than just work. So basically I get in a fair measure of off-hours driving too.)

Though also for the record, I typically fill up on the way home the day after the tank hits half empty. So I'm not one complaining about not getting the last half gallon out of my tank. I couldn't give a fig about that, though a larger tank would be a nice upgrade IMHO.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bob Allen @ Jan 8 2007, 11:55 AM) [snapback]372523[/snapback]</div>

What about just replacing the bladder tank with a larger one? Like ... from a race car perhaps...