Bladderectomy

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sl7vk @ Sep 14 2006, 01:25 PM) [snapback]319703[/snapback]</div>

I'm not having an issue with mine. My gripe is just a design in the car. It has a bladder which although may have a "MAXIMUM" capacity of 11.9 gallons, it has a "standard" capacity of 10.3 gallons.

I have not had any "issues" with my bladder either. It works fine. It holds gas like it was designed to. I've never spilled any fuel. As I said, I fill the car in with the slowest setting and that's it. Unfortunatly that only nets met 10.3 gallons of capacity. I'm not happy with that but it's not the end of the world.

You didnt come back "strong" you came back like a 10 year old kid.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Sep 14 2006, 04:37 PM) [snapback]319706[/snapback]</div>

The same clean emissions could be achieved without a bladder. Make no mistake, the bladder is just the cheapest way to do it.

What's irksome about the bladder, and I'm with everyone who feels it's an annoyance, is the randomness of the fills. Down to one bar? Will it take 10 gallons or 8? You never can tell. Distance doesn't matter... temperature matters. If it's 80 degrees and you've got two bars, you can put in more than if it's 10 degrees and you have one bar. Wth Toyota? Did anyone actually think this through? How come a 13K Focus manages PZEV without a bladder, but my 26K Prius needs arguably the worst designed piece of emissions technology ever to disgrace a car to do the same?

I'm sorry, I didn't expect to have to measure the temperature, distance driven, and ozone levels (kidding about that one) to figure out how much gas is left.

And maybe when you drive 4 miles a day, you just dont' care. When you drive 35, knowing if you have enough to get home is a big deal. Knowing if you have to get off the highway halfway home because you don't have enough is a nice thing to have. Some of us like to plan our commutes like that. Again, when you drive 4 miles, it's no big deal. Multiply that by 9 or 10, and it's a big freakin deal.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Sep 14 2006, 01:50 PM) [snapback]319710[/snapback]</div>

Unfortunatly the envornment has a lot to do with your potential MPG. I live where our freeway speed limits are 70 mph and there is typically pretty strong winds, in addition it is hot, and I typically make short trips.

If I drove "better" I could probably get a bit better (maybe 3mpg). It defeintly wouldnt be enough to give me the range I want. Even so, that range would be increased by having more capacity. My gripe is only saying something holds X amount of fuel, when it holds a good 10% less in reality.

I'm not thumping my chest about how much I drive. Do you think anyone would be happy driving a lot? I'm killing the value of my car and I clearly spend (waste) a lot of time driving. So where you think it's something to brag about. I don't. It's a negative if anything. Driving 36k miles a year in my opinion represents some sort of failure.

http://greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/car/1959.html

Feel free to look at my mileage. I've also gone nearly 500 miles on several tanks and put as much as 10.8 gallons in the car at times. (I need to add about 1300 miles of data to greenhybrid still, I've only been updating fueleconomy.gov lately).

The posts above are deciving as far as the timeline. When I made the 2nd post of mine you posted I had not even read his second post. So although it might look to be in that sequence. I don't constantly refresh as I type a message to see if there are updates.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(240sxer @ Sep 14 2006, 04:03 PM) [snapback]319718[/snapback]</div>

That still doesn't defeat his point, however. Despite the fact that you hadn't seen the respectful reply, you had still replied in a mean-spirited manor, which was what he was responding to later. The intent is what we're pointing out, much less so than the actual content involved in the posts.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 14 2006, 02:00 PM) [snapback]319717[/snapback]</div>

Thank you, that's my point exactly. The capacity of the car is so random that you don't know how far you can drive. Can I go only 400 miles? Does 1pip mean I should get gas? It makes it where you have to end up filling up the car at 2 bars or so just to make sure you don't run out no matter how many miles you "should" be able to drive.

It's hard driving around not knowing if your tank is holding 9 gallons, 10.. 11.. who knows. You have to end up filling at 8 to make sure you don't run out.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Sep 14 2006, 02:08 PM) [snapback]319719[/snapback]</div>

I'm not denying being an nice person about it. I just didnt start name calling as he did. Who cares though. It does not really matter. Jeez... It's all good.

I still love him. We are all happy.


It detracting from the point. We are discussing the bladder.

 

geez people. talk about a pointless thing to get all worked up over. relax!

since the introduction of the 2nd gen prius, they've developed a sealed metal tank that is implemented in both the highlander hybrid and the camry hybrid. i'm sure for the redesigned prius, they'll stick the metal tank in there too.

till then, the car has a bladder and you can't exactly do anything about it. take a deep breath and find a more constructive way to use all that pent up energy...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(240sxer @ Sep 14 2006, 04:13 PM) [snapback]319722[/snapback]</div>

Since we're getting back on topic here...

For me, and for most people, the Prius is probably the first car we've had that we really care about our gas mileage (i know there are some exceptions out there, you know who you are ). for that reason, myself and otherse haven't known in the past the mileage we're getting, nor been able to track the number of gallons used since last fillup, until after we've gotten to the pump.

Like all other cars, the gas gauge is non linear. however, from my experience, it is constant, at elast as far as varying mileage can go. i know i don't have a ton of data to overwhelm people with, but what i do have seems to indicate that the same pip will disappear after roughly the same amount of gas usage. So while we pay more attention to it and criticize it more, it seems that the gas guage is just as accurate as other cars. This is what i would be (and am) using to determine when i fill up. So rather than stressing out trying to keep track of how many gallons used and how many gallons remain, why not trust in the technology?

Additionally, you do know how much gas you previously put in the car, so if you must keep track of it, you do have a minimum amount of gas you know is in there (ignoring the possibility of overflow and some of that gas feeding back into the stations vapor recovery system).

In your other cars, at what point do you generally fill them up? when the needle hits E, or before? 10%, 20% full? For me, i always filled up my previous car at a certain mileage (270, to be precise), knowing that that mileage equated to around 80% of the tank. This gave me room to go over if needed. It seems to me that, rather than having a constant fuel amount in the bladder, the real problem with the car is the way the MPG varries, such that filling up at 400 miles means that you could have used drastically different amounts of gas. So instead i trust the gauge and it hasn't let me down yet. infact, it's telling my that i need to fill up on my way into work tomorrow morning.

 

The corvette has a thingie that tells you your range, current mpg, average mpg, etc. I don't get why the prius being such an expencive car does not have that sorta stuff.

I know the Corvette is a 54k car not a 26k car, but i'd assume other less expencive cars come with that also? Just if it showed a range the tank capacity issue will not be nearly as bad.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(240sxer @ Sep 14 2006, 05:41 PM) [snapback]319757[/snapback]</div>

"to assume is to make an nice person out of you and me"...

That being said, the Corvette can do that for one simple reason: the MPG don't vary that much. With traditional gas engines, the MPG are fairly constant (such as my previous car, which was extremely constant), which makes estimating the range a lot easier. The Prius, however, is not constant at all. In one trip your 5-min MPG bars could range anywhere from 15MPG (when it's freezing cold and there's no block heater, etc) to infinite MPG. How would you develop an accurate method of predicting the driving conditions for the car in order to give an accurate readout? Imagine a situation where someone lives 10 miles from the nearest gas station. Now, they're heading home one night, and the car tells them they've got 40 miles left on the tank. the car bases that number off of several assumptions: the gas gauge is correct, the mileage is constant. So the person goes home, thinking he has plenty of gas to get to the station in the morning. He wakes up to a nice, chilly 20 degrees F the next morning, and gets ready for work. He goes out to the car, which runs out of gas 5 miles later. why? because the gas gauge overestimated a little bit (say by a quarter of a tank) and his mileage was 12 MPG instead of his usual 60. who's fault is it that he now is stranded, in the freezing cold? His? Toyota's? I'm sure his lawyers will have something to say about that...

The only thing the car tries not to do is predict the future, in terms of mileage or range. It gives you all your current numbers, and your short term history. In fact, it has much more information than any other car i've ridden in.

If you want an estimated range, give this a try: Record each fillup amount, the MPG for each tank, etc. You can then rather simply create an estimate of whats in the tank (last pump was 10 gallons, but i should have only used 9, this pump was 8 gallons, so i should have about 9 gallons in the tank right now) then multiply that by your current mileage as you go along to get your range. Although, don't be surprised when you run out of gas trying to out-think the car.

Or, here's another really simple (and probably more accurate) range estimation: keep track of the mileage at which each pip blinks off. i tink you'll see that it's fairly constant, at least as constant as your MPG. You can then estimate the range based on the pips remaining and your cars history.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Sep 15 2006, 09:27 AM) [snapback]320015[/snapback]</div>

And you just made an nice person out of you!

The Corvette can do that for one reason... the same reason the Civic Hybrid, Accord Hybrid, Escape Hybrid and so on can..

The car's computer knows how much gas is in the tank in those cars. The computer in the Prius just doesn't have any exact idea how much gas is in the tank, because the bladder makes measuring imprecise.

 

From my experience, though, the Prius is just as accurate as any other car i've been in with regards to how much gas is remaining... I've never seen it suddenly decide it was wrong and shift it by 3 pips or anything. in fact, my previous car, on certain hills, i could watch the needle float up or down by as much as 15% depending on the inclination... It was always pretty fun to be saying "i'm almost out of gas, i really need to make it to the station... ahhh, there we go, i'll just stay on this hill and be fine for a while!" the fact is, it's next to impossible to accurately measure a quantity of liquid in a container moving over a rough surface with near constant changes in inclination. it's all just a "best guess".

I'd bet that the prius is at least as good as the other cars in estimating how much gas is left, and stand by my previous statement. no conventional car i've ever seen has mileage with as large a range as the prius (7MPG to infinite from my experience, although others may have gotten it lower )

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Sep 15 2006, 10:08 AM) [snapback]320043[/snapback]</div>

http://www.vassfamily.net/ToyotaPrius/CAN/fuelcanindex.html

As you can see, the Prius has no f'n clue how much gas is in the tank, due to the nature of the bladder. It guesses and averages to come close. But it really isn't accurate at all.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 15 2006, 10:20 AM) [snapback]320053[/snapback]</div>

All I see there is that the vehicle has a tendancy to underestimate the amount of fuel left in the bladder. Fine by me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wesj49 @ Sep 8 2006, 08:03 PM) [snapback]316798[/snapback]</div>

some of the new nozzles are extremly touchy... even when pulling the nozzle almost out "my little trick" it is still problematic.

If you can do it so it doen't make a seal "that forces pressure inside" then you won't get the backsplash.
that usually means pulling it close to out after the first click.

I'm good at stirring the mud anyway... so I'll say it....

What the big deal?..... if we use gas to kill weeds, or weedkiller for that matter?
Have you checked the ingredients in week killer?

They made the bladder so people don't go and flood the place with gas while some bozo is smoking a cigarette "like he's not supposed to be doing" or some running their car while filling.

Few big companies are movtivated by environmental issues anyway.. its about big money and getting sued and politics that give or takeaway money to them.

If the guy wants to remove his bladder... I don't see a reason to condemn him.... but on the other side...
except while I was in the learning phase, I too never spill a drop "as I don't like it on my paint" and I get close to 550 miles per tank usually.
Once you learn the little tricks, there is no need to remove your bladder, and at least where I live, I can avoid stations with super touchy gas nozzles.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sl7vk @ Sep 15 2006, 10:39 AM) [snapback]320064[/snapback]</div>

Then you're not looking, or reading, enough.

It underestimates either a lot or a little, it varies wildly. That's why it can't accurately predict (a) how much gas you really have or (B) how far you can go until you run out of gas. That was what I was trying to show with the data.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(240sxer @ Sep 14 2006, 02:13 PM) [snapback]319722[/snapback]</div>

When that last bar starts blinking, you have quite a while you can go, but beware.. what tricked my wife once was her bar started blinking coming out of the big city and she was headed home and didn't want to deal with the crowds and crowded traffic to get gas and would rather wait till home.

When your cruising at 60 - 70, miles go by quick and if you have the air going full blast, they go quicker!...
She limped to the nearest station on the battery when the car died within site of the station.
She ran for almost 25 minutes or so on a blinking light.. "thats about 30 miles"

If you like to push fate, don't drive on the blinking light unless your in the city where there are lots of stations, or carry a quality gas can with you full of at least 2.5 gallons of gas. "any less, the car may not recognize".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 15 2006, 07:20 AM) [snapback]320053[/snapback]</div>

Nice chart!.... anyway.. if I had a choice and it didn't cost much... I would vote to get rid of my bladder if it didn't cost too much.. its real irrigating and inconsistent when its cold out because as the car runs, it get warmer.

Now that its hot I don't notice so much of a problem.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Sep 15 2006, 11:06 AM) [snapback]320076[/snapback]</div>

Thanks, but it's not my chart. I saw it once and found it interesting.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Sep 15 2006, 06:27 AM) [snapback]320015[/snapback]</div>

Okay. The Corvette's mileage varies more than the prius's. Sorry. The Corvette can get as high as 99mpg when going down hill, or at low as 1.7mpg when accelerating. That's the just the extreme. On the freeway it gets from 27-32mph, around town it gets 15-18mpg. If you drive it around hard it usually gets around 13mpg. That's more variation than the prius. Sorry.

Do you think the Corvette just gets a constant mpg no matter what? My prius has gotten a worse of 39, and a best of 58. That's not even a variation of 100%. I've seen (with an entire tank) 13mpg in the Corvette, and 31mpg in the vette. That's more of a variation and the "range" is always correct.

I think it's like the other dude said, the corvette knows how much gas it has. The "estimate" goes off of your AVERAGE mpg. So once you've got a few miles the average does not change like crazy. It does not go off of the instant so at one point you have a 2000 mile range and the net you have a 60.

If i'm going down the freeway in the corvette and my average is 21mpg (because of some city driving). It will show my range based on that average, and adjust it as it goes up. If I reset the mpg computer it will create a new average based on the driving that point on and base the range off of that.

The only reason the prius could not do that is that the tank is inconsistant.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 8 2006, 02:49 PM) [snapback]316622[/snapback]</div>

The inaccuracy of the fuel gauge is the problem I have. There are times it flashes that it's about out of gas and it only took 8.5 gal to fill it. Other times, it started flashing and actually ran out within 10 or 15 miles. Although, it still only took 10 gal to fill. Other times, it hadn't even started the flashing and took slightly over 10 gal to fill it. Even though it's supposed to hold 11.9 gal. I've never been able to get 11 gallons in it.

I've assume this inaccuracy is bladder related. If not, someone clue me in.

Dave