Big 3 - Thumbs Up or Down?

In a way, the Prius has (perhaps unexpectedly) been Toyota's "bridge loan" to the future. Could be just pure dumb luck, or a bit of clairvoyance and risk taking. Who knows?

In hindsight, had GM not killed its EV, it might not be in such dire strait now. Who knows?

 

The US auto industry bailout is only addressing a very minor problem while the big disaster is not talked about. This big disaster is the continous declining market share of the US automakers. What good is a 100% sucessful bailout if the US market share is only 25% in ten years? Here are some US automaker boneheads still not addressed:
1) The US does not (after NINE years) have a Prius competitor. Malorn is right that mpg is competitive....except in the one market where mpg matters most.
2) Claims that the quality is "close to the same as XXX" or "just as good as XXX" is a big problem. Most consumers want the BEST, not a close second.
3) Dealers still make car shopping painful....very, very painful. There are a lot a bad memories of poor service and insulted customers that fear business at usual.

I would have no problem paying an extra $2000 per vehicle to cover the additional health costs if I was buying the best quality, best performing vehicle for my priorities. I really wish it were a US made vehicle.

If the bailout plan presented this.........

 

Don't see any GM cars on the lists below...

Toyota has 3 of the top 10 for 2009 (or 4 if you count the Altima Hybrid which is a Toyota hybrid design powertrain.) 4 (or 5) for 2008, etc., etc...

The one American car on the list (coming in at #10), the Ford Escape Hybrid (with Sanyo batteries), looks like it's peak yearly sales volume will be just over 21,000 (in 2007.)

Top ten best MPG cars 2009 - best fuel economy

Rank​

Manufacturer/Model​

MPG city/highway​

1​

Toyota Prius​

48/45​

2​

Honda Civic Hybrid 40/45

3​

Volkswagen Jetta 30/41

4​

Nissan Altima Hybrid

35/33​

5​

Toyota Camry Hybrid

33/34​

6​

Volkswagen Jetta Sportwagen

30/41​

7​

Mini Cooper

28/37​

8​

Mini Clubman

28/37​

9​

Toyota Yaris

29/36​

10​

Ford Escape Hybrid

34/31​

Top ten best MPG cars 2008 - best fuel economy

Rank​

Manufacturer/Model​

MPG city/highway ​

1​

Toyota Prius​

48/45​

2​

Honda Civic Hybrid 40/45

3​

Nissan Altima Hybrid 35/33

4​

Toyota Camry Hybrid

33/34​

5​

Ford Escape Hybrid/Mercury Mariner

34/30​

6​

Toyota Yaris

29/36​

7​

Toyota Corolla

28/37​

8​

Honda Fit

28/34​

9​

Nissan Versa/Scion XD

27/33​

10​

Hyundai Accent

27/32​

Top ten best MPG cars 2007 - best fuel economy ​

Rank​

Manufacturer/Model​

MPG city/highway ​

1​

Toyota Prius (auto)​

60/51​

2​

Honda Civic Hybrid (auto)​

49/51​

3​

Toyota Camry Hybrid (auto)​

40/38​

4​

Toyota Yaris (manual)​

34/40​

5​

Toyota Yaris (auto)​

34/39​

6​

Toyota Corolla (manual)​

35/42​

7​

Mini Cooper (manual)​

32/40​

8​

Honda Fit (manual)​

33/38​

9​

Honda Fit (auto)​

31/38​

10​

Ford Escape Hybrid (auto)​

36/31​

Top ten best MPG cars 2006 - best fuel economy
​

Rank​

Manufacturer/Model​

MPG city/highway ​

1​

Honda Insight (hybrid-electric, manual)​

60/66​

2​

Toyota Prius (hybrid-electric)​

60/51​

3​

Volkswagen New Beetle and Golf (diesel, manual)​

37/44​

4​

Volkswagen Jetta (diesel, manual) ​

36/41​

5​

Ford Escape Hybrid 4WD​

36/31​

6​

Volkswagen New Beetle and Jetta (diesel, automatic)​

35/42​

7​

Volkswagen Golf (diesel, automatic)​

33/44​

8​

Ford Escape Hybrid 4WD
Mazda Tribute Hybrid 4WD
Mercury Mariner Hybrid 4WD​

33/29
33/29
33/29 ​

9​

Lexus RX 400H 2WD
Highlander Hybrid 2WD​

33/28
33/28 ​

10​

Toyota Corolla (manual)​

32/41​

 

Prius
Camry Hybrid
Highlander Hybrid
Lexus 450h
Lexus 600h

Which makes it about 100 times the GM two-mode, hybrid sales volume.

One flies to Washington DC for a US government loan. The other does not.

One company made a long range decision about 15 years ago and implemented it. They spent, according to CNW Marketing, massive, huge amounts of money for what CNW still claims a lifetime of only 109,000 miles. So for the past two years, they sold every Prius they could make, limited by manufacturing resources.

The other abandoned the Precept, crushed their EV1, did everything they could to belittle the Prius, and perpetuated the hydrogen fraud. This company designed and manufactured the darling of CNW Marketing, the H2, and closed the H2 down three months after the CNW Marketing report. The H2 with a claimed lifetime of 350,000 miles and apparently no development costs. This company also flew to Washington DC to beg for tax payer money by having the CAFE requirements removed from a pool of $25 B, their bridge to future, efficient vehicles.

The second company can have all the money they need by taking Chapter 11 bankruptcy. If they have any problem with the banks, Paulson will forward as much as he can for the next 60 days. The judge will help them run their company by no doubt cutting out nonsense like "CNW Marketing" and "Ann-Arbor Center for Automotive Research." The second company will have to stop their self-inflicted wounds from making new scrap that sits in dealer lots and focus on affordable products that sell in a world of expensive oil.

Meanwhile, the first company will continue to adapt to the real world and competing with the third company. Curious how Japan Inc. sees a future beyond the immediate gratification of tomorrow.

Bob Wilson

 

GM seems sort of stuck in the past, yet they throw their past away in bringing out clean slate models often.

The Chevy HHR is the only car close to the format I was looking for this year. But, it has some sort of retro, back to the 60's styling. That, plus it came out in 2006, no prior history and already showing some half black circles in Consumer Reports, I never went to check it out.

Yesterday's paper featured the 2010 Camaro coming next Spring, 3 trims with 3.6 L V6 or a whopping 6.3 L V8. Paper said - with gas prices back down to pre-Iraq war prices, the gas price issue in buying a new Camaro has vanished from the radar. O. K.

 

Big Three and UAW crying loss of jobs: What about all those american autos being assembled in Mexico and Europe?? Bailout? Fienstein and Capps are you listening?
CA here.

 

And all those American autos being assembled in Mexico and Europe?

 

I also forgot Canada!!

 

This is a no brainer. You can't piss away a whole industry with millions of jobs at stake. But Detroit needs a new game plan--and maybe somebody around to make sure they are spending the taxpayers' borrowed dollars wisely.

Right now, the stock market is telling D.C. they think Paulsen sucks. Maybe he's gotten the message. Dartmouth football players may be as dumb as Harvard MBAs like Bush. Don't change the game plan in the middle of the game.

On a separate note, Ford seems to have the edge with three solid hybrids--Escape, Milan and Focus. GMs hybrids aren't fuel efficient enough--reflecting their bad management. And they are relying too much on the Volt. Ford would be in much better shape now had they come out with the Focus and Milan hybrids BEFORE the Escape. You have to wonder how the CEOs got to the top of their companies. (The answer is by not making any enemies.)

 

For your homework, you will look up all the domestic car plants of the big 3 auto companies. Plus their parts suppliers. Plus their dealerships. And report to us how many jobs that totals. Hint: the media says about 3 million. And that excludes jobs in Canada, Mexico and Europe.

 

I see the United States heading in a direction I do not want to have happen. By that, I mean far more State meddling in picking winners in the economy.

Canada tried this a couple of decades ago by setting up massive, complex bureaucracies - Crown Corporations - such as Export Development Corporation, Industry Canada, the Community International Development Agency, and others.

All Canada has to show for this is tens of billions of dollars per year in a funding black hole. As these Crown Corps were set up to be legally EXEMPT from audit, there is no way to verify how the money is being spent

I'm a member of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. They're a group of s*** disturbers who expose the more lavish taxpayer ripoffs, such as government employees using government credit cards to pay for personal gifts and vacations, how Bombardier sucks billions of taxpayer dollars, etc

No surprise, the Big Three in Ontario are now demanding similar taxpayer investment. Kind of odd that request, considering how the Big Three in Ontario don't have the health care costs

 

Time to retool: emphasis on walking and bicycle routes, light and national high speed rail. It makes no sense to pour gobs of money down a black hole that specializes in being as wasteful as possible. We need a long-term transportation plan, not short-term profit-taking.

 

If you were interested in the HHR I'm surprised you didn't look at the Pontiac Vibe. It's a 5-door hatch about the same size as the Prius. It is built in California in the same plant that makes the Toyota Matrix. Starts at $16K and is about $19K well equipped. Fuel mileage is 26/28/31 mpg city/combined/highway. The Vibe and Matrix are the same car with different skins, both based on the Corolla platform.

 

GM has a strong hybrid in the smaller SUV market with the Saturn Vue Hybrid. It is sized in the middle of the pack, bigger than the Escape but smaller than the Highlander and is the least expensive by far.
------------------------------------------ city/comb/hwy---- Edmunds TMV----Cargo Volume ---- Combined Legroom
2009 Ford Escape Hybrid 2wd: ---------- 34/32/31 ---------- $29,305 ------------ 27.8 ---------------- 77.2
2009 Saturn Vue Hybrid 2wd: ----------- 25/28/32 ---------- $26,666 ------------ 29.2 ---------------- 77.6
2009 Toyota Highland Hybrid (4wd) ----- 27/26/25 ----------- $34,700 ----------- 42.3 ---------------- 81.6

 

Actually, the technical term for the current Vue Greenline is "mild hybrid", i.e. the GM "belt alternator starter." Unlike the full 2 mode hybrids (Escape, Prius, Altima, Highlander, etc...) the BAS does not have an all electric mode; hence the Vue's poor city mileage rating. BAS primarily shuts down the gas engine when the car is not moving and also provides a mild assist during acceleration and cruising. Because BAS is also a mild design alteration, GM can manufacture the Vue Hybrid on the same line as the conventional Vue. Despite the manufacturing cost savings and lower price, consumers haven't found the Greenline Vue to be a winner; GM has only sold about 5,400 of them (along with another 4,000 Auras which also employ the BAS.)

There is a Vue 2 full hybrid (with 3.6L V6 262 hp gas engine) which may be introduced Q1 2009, but manufacturing is in Mexico (sorry... no bailout crocodile tears on this one!) City mileage comes up by 3 mpg to 28 while highway drops by 1. Estimated EV mode range is < 0.8 mi. The current BAS Vue Greenline will continue to be sold alongside the Vue 2.

 

JUST went to the LA AUTO SHOW. the BUICK (YES BUICK) RIVIERA CONCEPT car was outrageous. there was a concept jeep wrangler that also caught my eye. bottom line, if our domestic corps made these concept cars, i'm sure that they would sell.

what are they waiting for?????????? the production cars, (most of them) are very unappealing.............nobody was gathering around them.

 

The one car I'm interested in at the LA Auto Show is the Ford Fusion Hybrid. That is one sweet car if it can do what Ford claims it can-- up to 48mph on electric alone, 4 miles electric range. More power than a Camry Hybrid but even more fuel efficient.

Ford said it was able to do that because it mated a bigger MG2 to its power split device, and has a smaller, more efficient battery pack. (How close did they come to getting in trouble with the Chevron patents for the size of the NiMH battery pack?)

At least this one doesn't seem like Volt vaporware. I truly hope Ford succeeds in bringing the Fusion Hybrid to market.

 

justlurkin - yep, i agree. i spoke to a ford employee there and they're trying to get that car out asap. of interest to me also was the new, or newer FIESTA. they're saying that it's the best selling european car they have, they were trying to get that car over here.......what caught my eye was the center pillars that were missing on the concept. it was nice.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/22/business/22auto.html?ref=automobiles

Beginning in late 1993, the federal government contributed more than $1.25 billion to the program, an effort that began in late 1993 to make the automakers more competitive by assisting them in developing, by 2004, a prototype midsize sedan that would go 80 miles on a gallon of gas, with no loss of acceleration, size or carrying capacity.

“I don’t think the government got much out of that,” said Joan Claybrook, a former administrator of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the longtime president of Public Citizen, a consumer advocacy organization. She said the technical gains were small and probably would have been made anyway.

... At the Natural Resources Defense Council, Roland Hwang, a vehicles expert, said the main effects of the program were to deflect pressure on Detroit to make cleaner and more fuel-efficient vehicles right away, and to prod Japanese manufacturers into speeding up their own efforts, which resulted in the Prius and other successful models.

Michael P. Walsh, an air pollution consultant who was in charge of efforts by the Environmental Protection Agency to limit vehicle emissions, said the research and development programs aided by Washington “were basically big failures in that they didn’t really force the industry to bring anything to the marketplace.”

 

LA Car Show - costs $10 to get in, but $25B to get out...

(with apologies to Jay Leno)
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