Beware Buyers

Your main beef is the price right? I think you made it clear enough, multiple times.

I am happy with the PiP deal I got. I don't need to justify my purchase decision because I know PiP is the best car for me and as the only family car. I looked at it from cargo space, emission, efficiency, my driving and charging pattern.

Your dealer told you the wrong information about PiP when you had to made the decision 12 months ago. Now that you found out the truth, you don't have to try to justify your regular Prius purchase. We understand that it may make you feel better to bash the PiP.

Toyota knew only 40% of the daily driving (less than 12.5 miles) would find PiP ideal. Out of that 40% some may not be able to charge. It is a matter of spreading the words how good PiP is for those with short (and frequent) commute.

We have regular Prius (C or V) owners with very short commute and getting less than 50 MPG due to short cold engine start up trips. They found out too late that PiP would have been a better choice for them. I think education and getting the information out there is the key.

 

Of course it's about the price. If gas was cheap and non-polluting, I wouldn't be driving a standard Prius either. My SUV and the van are much more comfortable so I decided to hold on to them. The Prius sucks when comes to comfort.

Based on the new information that I got today, I would buy the PPI if gas was at $5/gallon or more.

 

Again with the generalizations.

Wow!

 

How much do you pay for the electricity per kWh?

 

14 cents/kwh.

I don't know what you mean by "short commute". If I were doing short commutes, I would be better off with a small gas-only car. I wasn't willing to pay the higher premium for the hybrid until I had to drive longer distance. For many years, I lived only 5 miles from work, it wouldn't pay to buy a hybrid.

 

That's about $2 for 50 EV miles. If the gas is $4 per gallon and you drive 50,000 miles on EV, you'll save $2,000. If you can put 75,000 miles on EV, you'll save $3,000.

This does not take account that your gas mileage efficiency would also go up (due to eliminating short trips).

PiP is our only family car so a gas-only car would not work for us. As a commuter only second car, it may make sense for you but you won't get the EPA rating for very short commutes. A regular Prius still could double the MPG for such short trips but PiP takes it to a new level.

My normal daily driving is 4 miles a day. If we eat out or go grocery shopping, etc, I rack up more miles but only use electricity. I don't use gasoline in the weekdays. In the weekend, I drive further sometimes about 100 miles round trip to NJ. Sometimes, 200 miles trip to upstate. I am going on a 1,000 miles trip to Canada for 4th of July long weekend.

PiP is very efficient with either fuel. If my driving distance change, the fuel ratio may change but I know it'll be efficient no matter which fuel it runs on. So far, I am averaging 132 MPGe on electric miles and 54 MPG on gas miles. 47% EV and 53% HV mile ratio.

 

I drive about 18000 a year and I'm getting 55 mpg overall. Based on a posting by an PPI owner, he is getting 77 mpg. Using that number, I'd be saving about 100 gal of gas each year. At $4/gal, that's $400 but I have to subtract the cost of electricity. So my savings is about $250/year. If I had to pay $2500 premium for PPI, it would take me 10 years to recoup. These numbers are based on if I could charge my car once a day. If I take the car to go on vacations or business trips, the chances are that I wouldn't be able to charge everyday.

The way you put it sounded good but in reality, I think majority of the people will have a hard time recouping the cost of the higher premium. I think PPI will look more attractive if the gas price goes up significantly and/or public charging stations become more widespread.

 

Your driving range is further than average and you are unable to charge at work. You are not an ideal candidate for PiP, as simple as that. Consider other people like me. I can recharge multiple times a day. I don't do it because I have enough EV miles left. In fact, I recharge every other day if I just do 4 miles a day. For the last 5 months, I have been averaging 130 MPG (electricity boosted).

PiP was designed to be EV for short, frequent city trips and still provide 50 MPG for longer trips. PiP is also good for commuters like John. He can recharge at work and his commute is mainly highway. He still gets the benefit with EV-Boost.

As long as you are aware how different driving distance and charging pattern can widely affect PiP to different people, you wouldn't be making general statements. You can always add "for me" at the end of your sentence and we all be fine with that.

 

Your argument doesn't seem to make sense. I put on about 50 miles a day and you're saying if I drove less, PPI would be better. I don't think so. Let's do the math. If I drove my standard Prius 20 miles a day and get only 50 mpg, that's 150 gal of gas per year. If I make the same trips using PPI, I probably would used about 0.1 gal of gas per day, and that's about 40 gal of gas per year. By driving only 20 miles a day, my savings is still about 100 gal/year. In terms of savings, there's not much difference whether I drove 50 miles per day or 20 miles per day.

In short trips under 2 miles, I get about 35 mpg. But very very seldom that I would just make one short trip per day on a cold start. I normally would make short trips combined with longer trips on the same day. Or I would make many short trips on the same day. The short trip argument isn't valid since I doubt many people would make one short trip per day constantly. If this is a real case for someone, he/she should just buy a small gas-only car and not having to pay the high premium for a hybrid.

 

If you drive 20 miles a day and can charge at work, you may not use any gas.

If you can only charge at home, you'll still have 60% EV ratio (12 miles EV). 50% EV ratio would save you $3,000 at $4 per gallon at the end of battery warranty (150k miles) and 60% even more.

As for your driving distance question, see below. Note, it is in km, not mile.

 

Why is no value whatsoever being given to the emission & consumption improvements?

Being greener and reducing dependency is worth more than $0.

We do that for a better future with no expectation to recoup in a monetary fashion.

 

Probably not to mainstream followers. There is no surprise that he decided on a regular Prius mainstream model.

PiP is still new and it is for the enthusiasts and early adopting leaders so your point may be falling on a deaf ear.

 

First of all, driving a Prius doesn't make a person "greener" than the next person. It depends on the carbon foot print of that person. IMO, putting 7 people in a van is greener than 1 person in a Prius going the same distance. Or a person living in an apartment could be greener than a Prius driver living in a large single home. When comes to being green, it isn't just about the car.

Secondly, driving a Prius or an PPI isn't going to save the world. We are just delaying the inevitable. Humans are the worst for the environment regardless how green they are. At the current birth rate, human population will double in the next 30 to 40 years. You won't be able to keep up with being green to compensate for the population increase. This planet will be screwed soon or later if we continue to have so many babies and at the same time, medical technology continue to keep people alive longer than needed. This is the reason why I put $0 on being green. It isn't going to save the planet. The only true way to save the planet is people stop having so many babies.

 

There are a lot of factors affecting the sales numbers. IMO, ignorance being the major one. I can't believe how many people think the car is EV only, and that once the 10-15 EV miles are gone, you are stuck until you recharge. Once I educate them on the fact that the car simply becomes a more efficient Prius Hybrid after the EV miles are up, then they are "sold" on the practicality of it.

 

DNFTT LOL

 

+1

 

+2!!!!

 

Sure....the sales man tried using the same trick to "educate" me. It sounded really good until I did the math. As for the technology, there's nothing wrong with PPI. But asking me to pay $6000 premium for a bigger battery that only yield 12 miles per charge is just too much. Although the information I got is a year old, the basic principle remains the same. For many people, it's not worth paying the higher premium for PPI.

After reading the messages here on this board, my conclusion is that PPI would be a good buy if you could "steal" from others to pay for your expenses.

- Rebates and incentives. Getting government rebate is a nice way of saying other taxpayers will be paying for your car. Getting manufacturer rebate is a nice way of saying they will take less profit or maybe even a lost. There's no free lunches. Someone has to pay.

- Charging your car outside your home. Charging your car at work is a nice way of saying getting your employer to pay for the electricity to charge your battery. It's legal stealing but the idea is the same, getting someone else to pay.

The bottom line is, the more you could "steal", the better the buy PPI becomes. It seems like this technology is unable to sell itself. People are not ignorant and this isn't rocket science. Until the price of batteries come down or price of gas goes up drastically, PPI isn't a good buy for most people.

 

So let me get this straight. The analytic skills you acquired as you and your acquired to become an engineering and account respectfully leads you to reject both incentives and tax credits. I assume that you also pass on incentives offered by local supermarkets and other retailers. More importantly, it is also wrong to claim your individual deductions on your state and federal income tax forms.

When it comes to the tax credits you have to ask whether the policies the tax credits promote are in the best interst of the nation as a whole. the alternative vehicle tax credits are intended to help increase our energy security. It is one of several tools in place to help us reduce our dependence on imported oil. Of course the alternative is to do nothing. Of course I assume that is OK since the poor will have jobs oversees fighting to secure the international oil supply.
Of course if you do take advantage of other retail sales there must be a reason why you think it is not appropriate to take advantage of auto sales.
By the way, back in the early 90s many said the same about the original Prius for which there was also a tax credit. That economic tool in part supported both the sales of the original Prius and then toyota turned around and used the earnings to support the R&D that is represented in the 2013 pris you recently purchased.

In other words you are a direct beneficiary of the same tax policy you supposedly oppose.
By the way my employer is very enthusiastic in their support of plugin cars. A number of years ago they put in place a to support green commuting. Free bus passes, ride sharing, van pooling and providing commuters with plugins access to chargers.
My employer feels it is one way they can contribute to the effort to enhance energy security and to help reduces emissions and thus improve the the local communities QOL.

What do you think we as a nation should do to energy independence and sustainability?

 

Prius_in_pa's maths are right though - if you can only charge up once a day then you only save 11 or so miles worth of petrol a day. A shorter commute won't increase the absolute amount of money he saves, only the proportional amount. Charging up more often, having to pay more for fuel, getting free or cheaper electricity, and the relative efficiency of EV v HV for the miles saved will all affect the maths and payback period, many other considerations will also affect the reasons why people buy the PiP rather than the hatchback. So the maths are right, the generalisation isn't: it's always wrong to generalise