Featured Best answer I've seen yet from Toyota about going full EV

I agree.
If cheap is what you want the Prime is your PHEV!
The Prime is a great car and is introducing a lot of people to the plug-in experience.

 

Nope, that's your spin to evade addressing what I actually stated. My comments were about long-term approach..

* reduced cost
* reduced complexity
* better weight distribution
* better physical fit
* better accessibility

Keep digging.

 

i'm waiting on the better physical fit

 

Shopped for a Rav4 hybrid recently? Wait times up to 6 months for certain models in certain markets. While ICE sedans are sitting on lots.

5th factory opening within the next month or so.

 

Air cooling is generally fine with smaller packs for PHEVs, as the car can always turn on the engine if the battery starts getting too hot. With larger packs, there is evidence that it isn't sufficient for battery health. There is the Leaf's history, and when Nissan increased the pack size, degradation seems to get worse.

Fans and blowers seem to help, but the more robust cells needed cost more, and that adds quickly as the pack size increases. Betting on some break through for decreased price isn't prudent long term planning. Any decrease will likely also occur with the less robust chemistries.

The Escape PHEV will be using liquid cooling, and for all we know, so will the Rav4 Prime.

It is actually the opposite. Moving enough air for sufficient cooling requires larger channels than with liquid. Which means the pack is bulckier for the same capacity. Liquid cooled packs fit into tighter spaces. The smaller tubing for liquid also means split pack designs are easier and cheaper. Air cooled ones would likely need blowers for each subsection.

But really, if weight distribution, fit, and accessibility is important, you design the platform for the battery instead of trying to stuff the battery in afterwards. The skateboard layout is proving the be the best for those considerations. Even the Rav4 Prime is placing the pack underneath.

tl;dr
Red Herring, as John didn't answer Bill's questions below when he replied to the post.
Why is it okay for you to do what you call out others for doing in your signature

 

OK, I totally agree with reduced cost.
The rest is debatable.

Complexity:
Sure having a small coolant pump and lines, freon/coolant heat exchanger, coolant heater and a small radiator (for when ambient air cooling is enough) is more complex than 'A Fan'.
But a noisy fan in the cabin and that whole air circuit takes up cabin space and requires driver involvement to set 'cool the cabin and pack', or some such work-around.

Weight and Fit:
Google images for modern HV packs in popular BEV's.

Accessibility:
Accessing the HV pack right there in the cabin of the car sounds pretty low tech.
Besides, why do you want to access it in the first place? To blow out the dust bunnies??

I personally think having the HV pack in the cabin of the car is a bad idea.
But I can see if you are patching in a bigger pack into an existing Hybrid, it is really cheaper to just stick it right there in the cabin of that hybrid.

 

yes, my son picked one up no problem about 6 months ago

but if you're equating low inventory with high demand, i have to disagree

 

Forcing a high volume of air through small channels using electricity isn't possible? Gasp! I'll have to send a letter to Toro to inform them the leaf-blower they produce is really only a fictional device.

Keep digging.

 

No one said anything about cabin air or cabin accessibility. And we already see that Ford is looking into the distributed approach for battery placement.

So... keep digging.

 

The nozzle of a pressure washer is smaller than the nozzle of a leaf blower.
The pipes to my home's radiators are far smaller than the ducting for forced air HVAC, and the little pumps are far quieter than a fan.

If Toyota's idea of an EV is shorter range, longer fast charge time, and less cabin space with the scream of a leaf blower, yeah, I guess no one would knock on their door for that.

You left went you meant by accessibility open to interpretation.

Tesla uses liquid cooling, and their packs are about as accessible as a transmission if it is a question of repairs and manufacturer. They were able to swap the battery on a Model S in 90 seconds.

 

OK, so outside air is being powered through the HV pack which is now outside the cabin.
Great. So now there is another air filter that must be serviced periodically.

And as always, this 'AIR' must be heated or cooled as required. So that TMS has to be in the air flow before the pack....
It's just not a good way to transfer heat in either direction.

I'll keep digging. You keep towing the company line! ,, for some reason.

tldr,
So I was following a buddy to his house down this gravel road. We were on the phone and he said "I'm driving slow to keep the dust down".
I said, "If I put my HVAC on recirc do you know how much my BEV cares about your dust? Not a bit."
So I joked about passing him and making him get back out of my dust.
I tried briefly but he didn't like that idea!

 

For heating you can use a simple and cheap resistance heater. I think Leaf and Prius Prime uses it.

 

Same old vague claims. It's history repeating, again.

Notice how the air-injection for both the heat-pump and the fuel-cell don't garner attention?

It's clearly not the issue you make it out to be.

 

That's wild speculation its likely that a proper sized pack will be less expensive in the long run liquid conditioned versus air cooled just like engines. The prime's pack is quite small (8.8 kwh) and its likely that government incentives are higher than the cost, but that doesn't mean a 12 kwh liquid cooled pack would cost more if it provided the same power (kw) allowing for lower power density and less expensive materials in the battery pack.

Doesn't the prime like the prius have a liquid cooled inverter and engine? It seems that toyota probably already knows how to do this for a battery pack just like tesla, gm, bmw, mercedes, hyundai, ford etc do.

 

They do, but to get the pack above freezing temperatures, not to bring it to one for efficient charging. Research has been done showing that having the heater element directly in the cell is more efficient if resistant heating is used.

Hyundai brought attention to it by not needing an air compressor for their fuel cell.

My issue is that air is an inefficient method for cooling. It requires more space in the battery, and more expensive materials in the cells. Even if advances reduce or eliminate those drawbacks, liquids would still out perform it for cooling. Allowing more densely packed battery cells, that means space savings and/or greater range, and more performance during driving and charging.

 

what is wild speculation?

 

worse than that ..... if it's 115°f outside - that up hill mountain drive will load battery temps another 20° higher. Then you stop to charge on that hot black asphalt, those 100kW+ charge temps can add another 20°. That's why cooling traction packs on a well equipped EV sound as loud as a parked semi hauling frozen goods in refrigerated trailers. Takes a lot of energy to pump out a lot of heat.

let me know once Toro can haul 7 passengers at 65mph,& be pulling a 5,000Lb trailer, across a 100° desert
how is it said? Keep digging?
.

 

are you saying you know better than toyota?

can you provide an example of a phev that is more economical to build than prime?

are you not speculating wildly?

 

Yes, there is a better way than toyota's current method.

 

pray tell