Anybody Alive???

I would be the first to admit that hybrids generally make more sense in urban driving than small diesel vehicles. Speaking just for myself, I do very little actual "urban" driving since I live in a mostly rural area and the nearest large city is about 45 miles away. Furthermore, I make several 1500 mile trips per year (visits to family/relatives, mostly highway driving conditions), and the 335d is idea (IMHO) for these trips.

The issue I'm having is the assertion that DPF is ineffective (and also the implication that gas vehicles don't produce PM). Based on my own experience and a myriad of studies (both U.S. and Europe), DPF is VERY effective, to the point that PM emissions (both in terms of particle mass and number) are significantly less than modern gas vehicles.

The U.S.-spec 335d is certified at 0.000 grams/mile PM emissions @ FUL (120,000 miles - http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2011/bmw_pc_a0080288_3d0_l2_diesel.pdf ). I personally know someone who just purchased a new 2011 Ford Mustang GT and the inside of the tailpipes were coated with a layer of soot inside of 50 miles after driving it off the dealer's lot. If gasoline engines don't produce PM, where did the layer of soot come from?

 

The diesel's longevity works against it when it comes to the cleaner perception. The long life means it is more likely to find an older, dirtier diesel on the road. Here, at least, I don't expect people to differentiate between a new Jetta and a 10+ year old one.

I believe diesels currently have an advantage over petros in the future of bio-fuels. Bio-diesel appears to be more promising than ethanol. It also produces less particles.

While I don't miss the black snow along the side of the road, the smaller particles produced during DPF regen, and always produced by a gasser, may be worse for the public health by being able to get deeper into the lungs. Some would call that ironic.

 

SI engine, if not DI, do not emit Particles at all, and if not so, catalist will itself be promotor to its breakdown.
And it is much more easy and cheap to keep a gasoline engine in good condition.

 

Then explain the layer of soot inside the tailpipes of a virtually new SI vehicle (PFI, not DI).

That has not been my experience.

 

Direct quote from CARB (anything but a diesel supporter by the way)...

PRELIMINARY DISCUSSION PAPER – PROPOSED AMENDMENTS TO CALIFORNIA’S LOW-EMISSION VEHICLE REGULATIONS – PARTICULATE MATTER MASS, ULTRAFINE SOLID PARTICLE NUMBER, AND BLACK CARBON EMISSIONS, CARB, page 10 (emphasis added)

 

Soot coming out of a SI engine may turn black tailpipes, whether from quench zone if not yet heated up (HC not burned), whether from oil vapours (crankcase ventilation and/or consumption). The later is usually what may give trouble to a EGR system in a SI engine. Diesel EGR tend to clogg much more often.
My fault, let me make a correction...even if properly running there is no such thing as zero PM, but many people, as me, can easily consider negligible emission. If you see Toyota european brochure Euro 5 for Prius, PM is slashed as zero.
The same applies for the traces of CO in a diesel pipe:
even if not expected, carbon monoxide is there, but seldom referred as being dangerous.

Older diesels, like we have had in the past (Europe) are definitely worse. Injectors are a PITA, and the modern are extremely sensitive to contaminants in the fuel. To clean them, or to repair a pump, many euros may not be enough. Air filters and fuel filters are less cheap...and both are responsible for the PM if not replaced.

 

That's fine, but there are diesel vehicles in Europe that are certified as "zero" PM also (e.g., BMW F10 535d - VCAcarfueldata.org.uk - Search Results - Further Information ). So if you consider PM from gasoline vehicles as negligible, then there's no reason you shouldn't also consider PM from new diesels with DPF as negligible.

Furthermore, certified PM emissions are measured under relatively gentle test cycles (FTP75 in NA, NEDC in Europe). There have been studies which show that under heavier loads (e.g., the US06 drive cycle), particle number (PN) emissions from SI vehicles approach and even exceed those of equivalent UNCONTROLLED diesel vehicles (PN emissions are FAR lower for a diesel vehicle equipped with DPF in this test cycle)...




(Environmental and Health Impact From Modern Cars, Ecotraffic (Sweden))

I agree that PM from gasoline engines likely is mostly semi-volatiles from HC quenching or lube oil, but semi-volatile PM has been shown to be about five times more toxic than solid PM (e.g., soot).

I had a 2002 Jetta TDI prior to my 2010 BMW 335d, and I experienced no issues with the engine or drivetrain. I also have a 2003 diesel Ram truck with common-rail fuel injection system. I have over 100,000 miles on it and have experienced no issues whatsoever with the drivetrain. We do have a few diesel options in North America, so we're not totally clueless about maintenance issues of diesel vehicles as you European folks seem to think.

 

I have a few business contacts living in the UK, Switzerland, and Germany. They also report the newest generation of passenger car diesel engine vehicles as being less reliable, in some cases much less reliable, than the older ones

The legendary reliability of older diesel engines, especially the Cummins used in the Ram pickup trucks, had to do with simple design and robust construction. Once the emissions controls were tacked on, fuel economy plummeted and repair bills rose

I know folks who also own GM Duramax and Ford PowerStroke trucks. Some with the Duramax had to replace injectors at around 140,000-180,000 km, usually a $3,500-$4,200 repair bill around here. The 7.3 Powerstroke seemed ok for most, the newer ones were horrible

Let's not forget my neighbour with the 2009 Kenworth running a Cummins ISX with DPF. He replaced a 1996 Kenworth with a Detroit 60, and sorely regrets THAT decision

Never mind fuel economy 40% lower. Reliability has been awful, sometimes the engine will get stuck in a regen cycle, which has already resulted in a DPF meltdown.

He has had numerous confrontations with the salesperson who promised him the new Cummins would be as fuel efficient as the old Detroit 60. That sales guy now shrugs and admits they were wrong

Now that the tractor has enough miles to be off major warranty, he is quite worried at how much the next repair bill will be. Assuming he can afford to keep driving it due to the horrific fuel economy

 

Well, but regarding reliability studies, you have been lucky.
Did you get a price for maintenance and parts of a petrol equivalent VW Jetta/BMW 3?

 

Perhaps. That's why I said it has not been MY experience that it is much more easy and cheap to keep a gasoline engine in good condition. My personal experience is that my gasoline vehicles have been MUCH more problematic than the diesel vehicles I've had.

IIRC, in the case of the Jetta, the diesel parts and maintenance were somewhat more expensive, but the service interval was longer, so it appeared to be about a wash. Don't have any data on the 3-Series yet.

 

We're not picking your posts apart and it's nothing personal. We're on this forum because America is way ahead of Europe in the use of hybrids and we can get answers to any hybrid questions that we just couldn't over here.

With regard to diesel cars, Europe is ahead of America and we're (me and my Portuguese friend) offering our extensive personal experience of this. Half of all cars here are diesel, some are good some are bad. Diesel has its place such as powering SUVs - the V8 Range Rover diesel for example is a great engine, but diesel isn't the panacea to road transport that some here are suggesting.

 

As I pulled out of the 5 Guys burger joint, I saw an Expedition sized pick up with a bumper sticker that said,
"Just because there's smoke ...
Don't mean it's broke"

ok, I guess that means it's a rose scented healty substance?

.

 

I would like to add profissional highway transportation, which in many cases is referred to technical/sales staff that go around the country visiting their customers, many kilometers on the road.
But regarding (sub)urban driving, no way!

 

There are a lot of those vintage trucks out there, and some very unhappy owners.

 

Interesting view. Well, from one end of the spectrum (smoke belchers) to the other end of the spectrum (perfectly dialed in) ... we present:
WAY more diesel than anyone will ever find a practical purpose for:

Dyno's at 3,424 hp? I suppose it's like manufacturing nukes. Some folks want to know how over the top you can possibly get.

 

You are right that Europe is way behind the US (and California in particular) in terms of emissions standards. I'm guessing we have a strong diesel lobby behind this (especially in France because French manufacturers have only been working on diesel engines in the past 15 years, at least Volkswagen developed both their gas and diesel engines).
This will change but it's taking too long for my taste...

 

And you do realize that because these guys blow black smoke on purpose, the average person will then paint every diesel owner with the same brush?

Much like how a relative handful of ignorant Prius drivers, especially the Pulse and GLide crowd, have resulted in every Prius owner being looked down upon. I won't even get started on how many Prius owners have run out of gas trying to squeeze every last drop out of the tank

So while a handful of rednecks may think they are Cool by using their tune box to blow clouds of black smoke on command, the average person seeing this simply supports far stricter regulation.

Indeed, a woman at the office who never in her life had an opinion about diesel engines, became a very strong opponent to them. Want to know what happened?

June on a nice day, she was in traffic in her 2009 Chrysler Town and Country, windows down as it was a nice day. She doesn't know much about pickup trucks, but the decal "Dodge" was readily apparent as the truck roared past her

This tool obviously had the tune box cranked, giant clouds of black smoke gushing out. She claimed the smoke was so intense she had to pull over and had a hard time catching her breath

So, this ordinarily nice woman who would never hurt a fly, started writing letters to her MP and MLA about the danger of diesel exhaust. She even wrote a letter to the Federal Minister of Transportation. She is thinking of starting a petition as well

Due to a relative handful of ignorant rednecks, you are losing "the hearts and minds." You had better do a lot better job self-policing, otherwise don't complain when tougher regulations get shoved down your throat