Another Smug Moment

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Oct 18 2007, 12:11 PM) [snapback]527349[/snapback]</div>

You are so right. Lets make a new law that says no one can live more than what like 5 miles from work. I would love this then they would have to pay me more so I could afford one of those million dollar homes or rent one of those apartments that cost two thousand a month. well there is also the ghetto on the other side of the hospital I think I can afford one of those places no problem id just have to get a gun and some other for of protection.

I have a 28-mile commute (one way) because I want to live in a nice area that I can afford. I live in a neighborhood were I can leave my car door open and nothing bad happens. the homes here cost around 200k give or take. I could get and apartment near to work but then I spend half my pay for what? no equity. Wait I know a condo, oh wait I cant afford one near work. So lets see new job then. Well let’s see I can quit my job and work for the gas station or the grocery store. But wait, then I cant afford my house and need to move away from here. we need that law so bad because I want a cool huge house.

 

In regards to my little joke about the Hummer being a solar powered car, since it's burning fossil fuels, which are old plant matter...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Oct 18 2007, 10:49 AM) [snapback]527370[/snapback]</div>

I know Darell, that's why I mentioned taking it to a rediculous extreme. To take it even further, you can consider oil a renewable resource, because after humanity has died out, vegetation grows back everywhere, and eventually after hundreds of millions of years, there will be more oil in the ground.

Obviously that's not really an option. That's like when I hear people at the Cato institute say there's no reason to bother saving endangered species, when 99% of species will eventually go extinct. The question is of timing - that's like saying since 100% of people will eventually die, why have hospitals?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Oct 18 2007, 01:01 PM) [snapback]527433[/snapback]</div>

My bad. I probably should have said "almost zero." Either way, it is a tough sell. What we eat is just one part of the big carbon equation. If you drive your gasoline car down to the tofu store, you aren't getting anywhere near zero.

I'm not, though I don't eat much meat - and all (Ok, most... don't know about the stuff when I eat out) of it is local and not "commercial" at least.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mormegil @ Oct 18 2007, 05:58 PM) [snapback]527540[/snapback]</div>

Yeah. I just have trouble getting out of "preach mode" sometimes. I know you were making a point.

Here's another topical one:
GM saying that they could only sell 800 EV1's, so there's no way to make a business of them. They left out the part where they only MADE 800 of them, so that in reality, every one that was made, was snapped up.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mormegil @ Oct 18 2007, 05:41 PM) [snapback]527534[/snapback]</div>

You're leaving out the energy used to locate, extract and transport, along with the energy used by our military to protect it.

In VERY rough numbers, the amount of energy input (beyond the oil) that goes into a gallon gasoline, would directly power an EV about 20 miles. In the gas car, the gas still needs to be burned to go that 20 miles. In the EV, you don't need the gas part - just the energy that went into making it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IAO @ Oct 18 2007, 05:49 PM) [snapback]527537[/snapback]</div>

Urban sprawl isn't just our god-given right - it is also good for us!

 

There are about 3413 BTU's in a Kwh. So, the 35000 BTUs necessary to make the gallon of gas (if it comes from electricity) is the over 10 Kwh. My car will go 25 miles on it.

Your car will not go 25 miles on 35,000 BTUs of gasoline. A portable generator cannot convert to electricity very efficiently.

You are now hitting upon the very reason why EV's are more efficient: they go further on less energy.

Assuming 100% conversion, the gallon of gas, at 125,000 BTUs, contains about 37 Kwh. If you could convert it 100%, you could sell it back for $3.70. (I think you are off by 1000x? Maybe you are using Wh instead of Kwh? ) But you can't do that, you can only convert about 25% or less in a small generator, even worse in a gas car, so take a quarter of that, now you are at $1.25, maybe more like $1. So, a $3 gallon of gas yields you $1 worth of electricity in a portable generator.

By the way, while you were out doing this, I drove my car around on electricity.

;-)

Nate

 

There are about 3413 BTU's in a Kwh. So, the 35000 BTUs necessary to make the gallon of gas (if it comes from electricity) is the over 10 Kwh. My car will go 25 miles on it.

Your car will not go 25 miles on 35,000 BTUs of gasoline. A portable generator cannot convert to electricity very efficiently.

You are now hitting upon the very reason why EV's are more efficient: they go further on less energy.

Assuming 100% conversion, the gallon of gas, at 125,000 BTUs, contains about 37 Kwh. If you could convert it 100%, you could sell it back for $3.70. (I think you are off by 1000x? Maybe you are using Wh instead of Kwh? ) But you can't do that, you can only convert about 25% or less in a small generator, even worse in a gas car, so take a quarter of that, now you are at $1.25, maybe more like $1. So, a $3 gallon of gas yields you $1 worth of electricity in a portable generator.

By the way, while you were out doing this, I drove my car around on electricity.

;-)

Nate

 

Actually, in the earlier post, I included the cost of transport, storage, etc. I didn't add in cost of military, as not all fossil fuels come from Iraq (I didn't want to figure out what percentage or factor in costs for that), and I didn't add in discovery costs (as I didn't think of it, and don't think it's fair, otherwise you should factor in EV R&D costs).

I recall the energy required was 37% of what you get out. So that 125,000 BTU in a gallon costs about 47,000 BTU to get to your car. Substantial.

I pretty much agree with all your other points.


Also, I never suggested that EV cars aren't more efficient than hybrids. My point was that an EV car powered from the grid powered by fossil fuels still derives it's energy from fossil fuels. I don't disagree it uses less fossil fuel / energy per mile.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Oct 18 2007, 09:02 PM) [snapback]527618[/snapback]</div>

Actually Nate, you were off by 1000x, that was the point of that statement (the line above it states you got your units mixed up, so I'm not sure how that was missed). You stated in an earlier post (which I quoted), that 35,000 BTU was about equal to 35,000 kWh. Which isn't right. My calculations were based on your incorrect unit conversion, pointing out that it was incorrect. Sorry to be smug.

 

Sorry, my calculations were correct, my unit statement was not. 35,000 BTUs of electricity (10 Kwh) takes my car about 25 miles.

Too bad I couldn't do my stoichiometry in the Priuschat post! That still takes pen and paper.

The point is this: 10 Kwh (35,000 BTUS) can make a gallon of gas or move an EV 25 miles.

Nate

P.S. Still smug ;-)

 

Deleted after I reread the post.

 

Lets say us Prius drivers, you know who you are, can have B+ smug moments and you EV drivers, you can have A- smug moments. My mum, who never drives can have an A smug moment and dead people can feel the smuggest of all cos' they don't even pass gas.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Oct 19 2007, 01:39 AM) [snapback]527656[/snapback]</div>

Except as the dead decay, they release carbon due to decomposition. But at least, like biofuel, that's renewable.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IAO @ Oct 18 2007, 07:49 PM) [snapback]527537[/snapback]</div>

Okay, first off 28 miles < 40 miles. Secondly, I deliberately phrased it "We shouldn't expect that everybody has a right to live 40 miles or more from their workplace." From that I mean that we could make exceptions - people who travel as part of their work for instance, or construction workers whose job moves regularly. You have a problem in that hospitals are spaced fairly widely apart, still I find it hard to believe there isn't a nice house in your price range within say 12 miles of your workplace; or that there isn't a medical office or clinic closer to your home where you could find work (doesn't sound like such a good location anymore with absolutely no medical facilities within 40 minutes drive), and that you'd be immediately forced to pump gas for a living instead.

For myself, I scanned the ads and looked up companies for some time, found ones within 12 miles that did what I liked, and waited for an opening. Cities have a surprising number of small companies and field offices even in the suburbs and so-called "bedroom communities", it takes some effort to find all the relevant companies in a particular range. I got lucky with a company 8 miles away (biking distance), then after working there a year they moved even closer.

And no, I'm not expecting any law to be passed on this anytime soon.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mormegil @ Oct 18 2007, 09:15 PM) [snapback]527620[/snapback]</div>

If you can itemize these numbers for me, I'd sure like to have them. I've been searching for them for many years. Seriously... where did you come up with them, and what are they?

Our military isn't only used in Iraq to protect our oil rights. And in fact we currently don't have much oil coming form Iraq... we're planning on the future for that one.

This one I don't get. Not sure what discover is, or how it relates to EV R&D. Do we also add in ICE R&D on the oil side? Takes lots of energy to find and extract the oil. Not sure if that was added in anywhyere. Hey, I'm the first to agree that there are no easy answers here. What to include? What to assume? And since I've failed to come up with any hard numbers, I'm quick to ask what all is included and just where the numbers come from! I appreciate you trying to figure this out - believe me. The only thing I've been able to confirm through several sources is that the energy consumed just to MAKE a gallon gasoline would power an EV about as far as a gasoline car could drive on the gallon of gas that was produced. We also know that the oil industry is the single biggest consumer of electricity in the country and in the world.

I don't think anybody would argue that an EV powered with fossil fuels is... well.. powered by fossil fuels. No energy we use is totally benign to the environment. Our job is to use the best ones, and to use whatever we use the most efficient way we can. If we're going to drive private automobiles, and we're going to use fossil fuels to do it - there is currently no better way than in an EV. There is LOTS of room for improvement, obviously.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mormegil @ Oct 20 2007, 04:46 AM) [snapback]527858[/snapback]</div>

I want to be fed into a coal burning power station so I can be carbon neutral. I wonder if they will allow it?
But any of the previous groups are going to do the same thing also. Will most of the carbon be trapped in the soil if buried?

I thought most oil producers produce their own electricity, I don't recall any big power lines into the local refinery and on a recent trip to Moomba gas fields I didn't see any power lines at all and no, they don't underground power lines in the bush. The oil was pumped through a pipe from Moomba, 1200km to Port Stanvac when it was operational where it was processed along with imported richer crude. I'll go look for those big power lines into the refinery again today.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Oct 19 2007, 06:17 PM) [snapback]527997[/snapback]</div>

Not sure how it is done down there. Here in the US, the oil companies also produce much of their own electricity, for the simple reason that the utilities can't make as much as they need. They are, however, the biggest purchasers of electricity from the utilities as well. But just because they are the biggest consumers of electricity does not mean that only get it from the utilities!

That they produce their own doesn't "let them off the hook" in any meaningful way. They're still burning something to make electricity... and that electricity could still be used for something more benign than making gasoline. Though I agree it would be silly for a gasoline refinery to make electricity to then charge EVs.

 

Wouldn't that be the most ironic thing.... the world converts to EV vehicles, but the oil companies refuse to go down.. Instead, they go into electricity production, and manage to produce cheap electricity, effectively successfully going into competition with the current power companies.

 

I guess what I was saying is we might be counting the electricity twice as it is likely the gas from the refinery is used to power the refinery there fore is included in the energy in the crude oil.

Another problem with electric car is the capacity of generators and distributors to supply enough electricity for current growing needs but they would also need to supply the energy for the city's fleet of electric cars. Don't say solar as most of us have our cars out during the day and in the garage all night. Ever noticed how dark it is at night?

On the radio today I heard that this summer (in Adelaide) we are in for more blackouts than in past years due to lack of peek capacity and a growing number of reverse cycle air conditioners in homes. Can you imagine the hastle, no sleep because the power was out all night then the car runs out of power half way to work. Looking forward to a 40 degree C day stuck on the side of the road, oh yeah!

 

I understand the concern. My point, however is that making gasoline uses lots of electricity. People complain that EVs use lots of electricity. I think those people need to realize how much electricity they're already using in their gas cars. I don't give a damn where it comes from. It if comes from burning petroleum products at the refinery, it makes the point no less valid. People driving gasoline cars are using about as much electricity as my EV does... and on top of that they are burning gasoline.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Oct 20 2007, 01:49 AM) [snapback]528120[/snapback]</div>

While I appreciate all the effort you are putting into finding all the "problems" with EVs... have you stopped to think a bit about the "ditribution and supply" of gasoline? Renewable energy is effectively unlimited, as the fuel source continues as long as the sun in shining and the wind is blowing. Oil and gas... well, we're quickly headed down the slippery slope of the far side of the peak. Once we use up all the easy stuff, there ain't no more! Yes, we would need more capacity to run electric cars. We also need more capacity for everybody's new pool and AC unit and lights and... everything. We need to work on getting our electric grid green, and more robust. This isn't rocket science! I see no need to stick our head in the sand (your avatar inspired that one!) and give up all hope that electricity can help us out of our oil dependence. We MUST find a way out of our oil situation. We can't continue doing what we're doing. Let's not waste our effort searching for all the "problems" with EVs... let's figure out how to make them work for us.

I'll take your advice, and won't say "solar." How about "wind?" And how about "EVs." EVs? Yup, with enough EVs running around and V2G capability, EVs can PREVENT brownout and blackouts. They can charge when we are below capacity on the grid, and give some back when needed, to shave the peaks... and then be refilled when the fleeting peak has passed once again. We have more than enough generation capacity. The fear is the peaks. We shave the peaks, and we can REMOVE some generating capacity. EVs can help make that happen. Just a little bit of fun irony to add to the soup.

So why don't we call this a problem with household AC usage... or too many homes being built? Why don't we spend some time fixing it? I keep hearing that EVs can't work because the grid isn't good enough! Well, big surprise. It will need to be expanded. Just like we expanded it to make the electricity for all the new homes over the past 125 years. Just like we expanded it to make the electricity that the oil companies use. It will be easier to expand the grid than to squeeze more oil out of the world's turnip. Easier than building ANY kind of H2 infrastructure. If we don't have enough electricity for our homes now, why don't we stop building homes until we get this sorted out? And for that matter, why don't we stop making gasoline?

Lovely imagination. I've had way more hastles with gasoline cars per mile driven than with EVs per mile driven. I have yet to be stranded in an EV... been stranded in a gas car many times. Sometimes s**t happens. Nothing is perfect. Not even an EV. You deal with it. In the meantime, when my EV IS working, and charging properly, it isn't destroying our environment, our health and our security. What happens when the gas car is working?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriuStorm @ Oct 19 2007, 08:30 PM) [snapback]528052[/snapback]</div>

Well, today you may have already noticed that they want to be your H2 distributor. Ever wonder why there's so much money behind H2 vehicles and not electric vehicles? You've already discovered the answer.

 

Nate & Darell,

What fluids do the Rav4 EVs use?

I'm guessing brake, some sort of gear or "transmission" oil and water/coolant?

Also, what maintenance items are required? Spark plugs?

Thanks!

Marc