Angry Ford dealer in SC calls imports "rice ready...not road ready"

I didn't misunderstand you, the problem is in the management of these companies, as you say Japan does not mean cheap labour. Can you blame unions for doing what people pay union dues for, getting a good deal?

Corporations have their lobby groups and associations looking after their interests, why not workers? Do you have such bodies as Chamber of Commerce and Industry? Automotive Chamber of Commerce? These are unions for employers. What is the difference?
I am a member of the Public Service Association (PSA) and the Community and Public Sector Union(CPSU).
When the directors of companies are paid realistic salary packages then the workers will have less reason to push for more. Why should an assembly line worker get by on $30,000 a year when the director is paid millions? It's time to get a bit real, it isn't like the director works alone, he has a management team.

I can only assume this whole unfunded health care mess is to do with employers not investing money that should have been put aside for health care of past and current employees in secure investments but into their own companies. That's just a guess. Because Australia is a "communist state" we have a government sponsored health scheme which is pretty basic but will look after you if you are really sick. People take out their own health insurance, it isn't common for a company to contribute as part of a wage package. I suspect health care was offered to workers as a way to reduce demands for a pay rise at some time in the past, so who made that mistake? The workers? I doubt it.

It's easy to blame the current management team but they carry the can now for many poor decisions made in the past.

 

I'm sure it's already been mentioned here but I'll offer my thoughts on Unions:

They no longer serve a purpose and should go away. They once served a very good purpose back in the 20s and 30s, but with Federal labor laws and OSHA laws, and local state and government laws, I feel the Unions don't serve a purpose anymore. After all, how can a company justify paying someone $30/hr to screw lug nuts on a wheel or guide an automated machine to place parts?

The automakers should work to eliminate Unions and then offer salaries commensurate to the type and complexity of the job. Not everyone will be happy but I'm sure many will accept those jobs.

 

Well here is my thought on unions.
Imagine a company the size of GM or Ford, with a line of all the employees lining up outside the bosses door asking for a raise, that is the world without unions.
Imagine the boss in his position of power over each individual, he holds all the cards. "You work for minimum pay in my factory or I'll just bring in the Mexicans to do your job." Think I'm wrong? I have seen it happen, it is happening now. There is a meat works in Murray Bridge (70km from Adelaide) where all the staff are Chinese on temporary work visas, all of them. They all ride bicycles to and from work and are banned from talking with the locals. Talk with the locals and you get sent home, to China. This has been in the local paper there so people know why they don't talk to the locals. They work for minimum wages but Australians wouldn't work in a boning room for minimum wages and I don't blame them. The company got permission from the government to use imported labour because they couldn't get skilled staff locally, well not at $12 per hour they couldn't. It is a Chinese company.

I'm a union member because my union negotiates with South Australia's largest employer, the South Australian government and although the union would negotiate on my behalf anyway, I like to pay my way. I was recently reclassified and I did a lot of work toward that reclassification, a whole group of us got a pay rise out of that work even though only 2 of us applied because we all do similar work. The union wasn't involved but had we been unsuccessful the union was there to back us up. I'm not talking strikes but to negotiate on behalf of the group, it is called Enterprise Bargaining, where the union negotiates on behalf of all the workers in an enterprise. Can you see how a union backed by a majority of workers in a company can be on more of a even playing field against a corporation than a single worker negotiation with a trained negotiator that the employer would employ to negotiate for them?

If it wasn't in the nature of employers to screw workers there wouldn't have been a need for unions. Without unions the only thing that would be different is executives would have bigger houses, fly in bigger private jets and drive bigger car while workers live in tin shacks in rubbish dumps and walk to get around. If corporations could get away with it they would.

Tell me is your system of government any different than it was in the 30s? So what has changed?

As I said, if companies can have a union or chamber of commerce, why can't workers?

 

When the employers lobby to lessen the Federal and OSHA laws, who will speak for the employees?

 

Well since you're droning is to a Prius crowd, maybe you're preaching to the wrong crowd? BTW, let's not forget the other variables, such as quality. Consumer reports for example rate our Lexus hybrid midsized SUV head & shoulders above regular GM stuff ... not that they even HAVE a mid sized full hybrid SUV.

As for the Prius losing money ... perhaps GM will never admit the truth that Toyota makes money on a Prius. It was only today (or yesterday) that one of GM's own Board members admitted the REAL truth ... that GM is toast, because of THEM. A flat out admission that at every turn the BOARD is the reason GM are loosers. Be it keeping up with technology, letting wages get out of hand, over paying exec's ... paying out too much to stockholders where that $$ should have been funneled into R&D ... much less all the millions on lobbying the EV1 out of existence, never mind the lie that no one wanted it, or that there wasn't a waiting list to get it.

Now, if one of GM's own board members admits it, don't you think it's time for the dealer in the fly-over states to get on board? ... and maybe jump on a GM board to straiten those folks out too?

 

Now days I am preaching to every crowd, been on a couple of radio show, editiorial boards, etc.

Maybe we will never know, but in the industry it is hard to find anyone, foreign or domestic, who thinks the Prius is profitable. Now if the free media and goodwill is measured it has been a smash hit.

I would love to be on the GM board(or Ford), in fact it was widely discussed in the early 00's of installing a uAW rep and a dealer rep. Maybe a publicity sunt maybe not. ANyway it did not happen.

My favorite stupid decision was when the factories were buying dealerships to show the dealers how it was done with the idea I am sure of eventually eliminating the dealers. It was a blodd bath and lasted less than 2 years. I know they have made many bad decisions over the years, i ahve lived through them.

 

Malorn,

Why are you still looking at the tracks in the mud?

Why do you insist on looking backwards when the only chance of our country
minimizing the economic damage is to look hard at what must be done now
and in the near future?

You are missing a very real chance to be truly helpful, not just to us, but to
the Detroit 3.

Both Ford and GM have published their plans for their recovery. To be frank,
they are somewhat suspect. If you know as much about the industry as you
say, then why aren't you telling us in detail about how their plans will work,
and how their still smoke and mirrors new offerings will be so good that
cash-strapped buyers will flock to them?

Listen, even if Ford and GM last long enough to start producing the new cars
they say they will, it's gong to take some time. You should be showing us
why it will be worth the wait... and forget the grand economic theorizing.

How are the Fords going to be better than the Honda Insight, how are the
hazy GM offerings going to be better than the Gen III Prius that will be here
next year?

We want to know. IMHO, you need to either put up, or shut up.

Oops, not PC! Let's make that, "or remain quiescent."

 

Honestly I think the cake might be baked, so-to-speak. I hope not but time is running short and it will take a near miracle for Detroit to survive. They will need some support from the government, and a stroke or two of luck.
Personally I have been planning for the worst since I had a conversation with Jayman about a year ago.
They have the products right now to succeed in the US market(they are succeding in every other market). Perception is killing them right now and that takes years to change barring a catyclysmic event. They have to make it to about mid 2010 to have a chance, that is when the huge cost savings begin to kick in with the UAW and retirees.

I fear for all of us, I think we could have a situation in the US the next couple of years that could bring us to a place none of us want to go.

 

+1 - really good summary Rokeby and with positives in it, without trying to take the p*ss out of a GM dealer. Much maligned Malorn, want to think on this ? There's some good points here. Forget the past, move on, what can be done ?

 

Brother,

I fear that you are correct. I pray that things don't get as bad as I too fear.

Right now, I see two big problems:

1. For domestic automakers, they must get FE/MPGs up to where the Prius is
now. The Chinese BYD could be a killer, it sounds too good to be true.

2. The Gen III Prius looks to be over-bloated with electronic gagetry, at least
in the top levels. This is not the car my brothers and sisters, and neighbors
will be needing in 3 years time. They will need honest, high FE/MPG, basic
transportation to get to their job, or to go to interviews for a new job. Where
will this every-mans car come from, Detroit or abroad? I hope the former.

Rokeby

 

You had better do some more planning. I just returned from another scary business trip. I honestly thought things were bad enough less than a month ago, it's now much, much worse. Folks over there are borderline suicidal

Whether the wall street scandals (Hello, Madoff), mortgage scandals, criminally incompetent large corporate boards, etc, all the chickens are now coming home to roost. This is going to get bad, we are in deep s***

One worry I have right now is the massive debt we will incur with bailouts that will probably not work anyway. Even if we manage to squeak along, the debt will end up crushing us anyway.

 

For some reason, you always seem to get back to Toyota being the fault of everything that has gone wrong with us

What about backstabbing politicians (Democrat and Republican)? What about greedy large corps who love pounding a stake through their own workers just to make a quick buck overseas?

What about all the terrorist oil we import because we need "cheap" oil to drive our car-based economy? Most of our domestic oil barely breaks even at $60 a barrel

 

Now come on....Just blame President Bush.

 

Really? Why focus on one car that is a tiny fraction of the total volume sold. How will GM or Ford building one car that gets exceptional mileage help them or the country?

The critical cars for GM are the Cruze, Malibu, and Impala. The new Chevy Camaro will be more important financially than the Volt.

Ford's critical vehicles are the Fiesta, Focus, and Fusion. Without a doubt the Mustang brings in more money than the Escape hybrid.

The BYD isn't too good to be true, it is two unsafe to be sold outside of China. It seems to be a rip-off of the last generation Corolla and the HSD.

If they need basic, high FE transportation, the Prius was never for them. The Focus, Civic, Corolla, Versa, Neon, and Cobalt were their cars. The Chevy Cruze and Ford Focus will hold their own in this category.

 

But only the Prius and other real high efficiency petrol electric hybrids are a step toward all electric and a green feather in the cap of the manufacturer. GMs Waggoner has admitted that the crushing of EV1 was a mistake, to say nothing of selling the technology to an oil company, so who is right about the gradual change toward electric cars? Is it Waggoner, Toyota, or you?

If Focus, Cobalt and Cruize are the path to the future I don't really like where we are headed.

 

This great news for Ford, obviously they have some forward looking executives to can really plan for the future, maybe they should put together a plan for gm and chrysler, they seem to have what it takes. Also I have heard that Ford has really made an effort to improve the quality of their cars, this is all good news for the American car build....Ford:cheer2::cheer2:

 

I don't see a gradual transition from ICE to hybrids to electric cars. I see the major manufacturers building limited numbers of hybrids to test technology. When the electric technology is ready they will start to build electric cars. For the first time we are seeing major manufacturers working on electric vehicles without a mandate from governments. I see this a positive step and hope that Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, Mazda, and others do follow through with their plans to bring us EV's in the 2010 to 2012 timeframe. I don't know if I'm right, we'll have to wait 10 years and see.

Wagoner has admitted that crushing the EV1's was a mistake from a marketing and PR view. He still maintains that the EV1 was not financially viable and that Toyota loses money on every Prius it sells.

I don't see these vehicles as the long term future of transportation. I don't even see cars as the long term future of transportation. I do see these cars as the core of these companies going forward in the next 5 to 10 years. Without successful core products, Ford and Chevy will not be around to build EV's or hybrids.

Without profits from the Corolla, Camry and other standard ICE cars, the Prius would never have happened and would not continue.

 

You are dead right.
I drive a Prius because it is what I believe as near as I can buy in Australia to a practical electric car. Yes I know it runs on petrol but the electric drive train is effectively a test bed for the electric drive systems which if testing goes well will power the future of motoring.

So far the future looks electric.

I look forward to the day it is practical to live without a car, it willl happen too.

 

Wagoner – said it? Oh, well then it must be gospel. Yes, there’s a shining source for all knowing business expertise … one of many shlomoes who helped drive GM into the twilight of its existence. imo his arrogance & lack of character make his version of 'truths' the exact opposite.

 

The US has been let down by its politicians most of all. They have created the mess on wall street and the financial crisis with years and years of deregulation and looking the other way. Thanks to Wall street a Us company is only as good as its quarterly earnings and there is way too much pressure on the short-term. American companies are fighting against foreign-government subsidized companies for market share against a backdrop of incredible pressure for short-term profits from wall-street and all the babbling idiots on bloomberg and cnbc. Toyota was just in the right place at the right time, part of it was through planning and part of it was through luck and bad decsisons in WAsh DC and corporate baordrooms across america.