Featured Americans insist on 300 miles of EV range. They’re right

How often do you take these long trips? If more than twice a year, no EV is ever going to meet your needs. If you do it once or twice a year, you can rent a car or take a second car if you have one.

EVs make great commuting or secondary vehicles. They're cheaper to fuel and maintain in most states.

 

Although things are supposedly going back to normal, personally I've lost faith in the rental car service. When you try to schedule a rental months in advance and can't because of zero inventory, that makes that no longer an option, especially when it happens to you more than once.

EV's make a great secondary car right now in families that can afford two nice newish expensive cars. Otherwise you end up with one nice newish EV and then have to take the ol' 52hp 1985 VW Golf diesel that billows giant clouds of black smoke when everyou go to visit your in-laws. At least that was my case.

 

Exactly…they don’t make great all-around cars yet!

The prius otoh can do it all and is well balanced in terms of its costs. EVs are cheaper to fuel at home, but more expensive to fuel with public chargers right now. EVs are somewhat cheaper to maintain but the most popular of them (Teslas) have expensive parts to replace. So tires are more expensive and more important, insuring a Tesla is very expensive and will probably cancel out any fuel savings you get! (Compared to a prius)

The higher msrp will cancel out any maintenance savings you get. The only way it works is with government subsidies that not everyone can receive, and even then it is a close call

 

Like I said before, a PHEV would probably make the most sense for a lot of people. I was once persuaded to believe there was no benefit to lugging around an engine and fuel tank when I didn't need them, and that lugging around a big battery when not needed was also a waste.

But now I feel that until EV prices go down, a PHEV makes a huge amount of sense. The Prius Prime can end up costing less to drive than a normal Prius. No need for a 240V EVSE installation. No need to stop at DCQC stations. Sadly, very few PHEV options exist in the USA.

 

yeah it is a mystery why toyota is not making more primes right no. I would spring for one if the interior didnt have red all over

toyota could really dominate, i think, if they produced more of both priuses…i dont understand the mentality, they are one of the biggest car companies in the world, they have the resources to make more. Why make them so scarce? It only benefits the dealers who can charge their market adjustments and markups. Toyota could sell 200k priuses/year again, and consumers could have an affordable hev or phev. Instead toyota sells fewer cars, hardly any consumers can obtain one of these rare rationed priuses, and two-bit dealers who never went to college are on a power trip stealing thousands of dollars from consumers thinking they’re real hot sh*t. (Sorrrrryy)

 

i think they lose money on them, they're called 'compliance cars'.

 

Interesting. That could be true. A PHEV should cost a lot more. The RAV4 Prime is some $12,000 more than a regular RAV4 hybrid, yet the Prius Prime is about $5,000 more than a normal Prius. Does making it a PHEV really cost up to $12,000, maybe more? And if so, why is the Prius Prime not that expensive? Is Toyota losing money on them?

 

they need to sell a certain amount to 'comply' with california carb regs. that's why they only sell plug ins in carb states, and why they price them to sell.

while they are losing money, they are gaining carb credits, which they need.

 

Well that's good but also stinks.

It's good in that it makes it easier to get into an EV or PHEV in those states.

It stinks because it means true affordable EVs and PHEVs are still a long way off.

 

Bracketed words added by me.
Toyota's first attempt at a BEV vehicle was so overpriced and had such a short range, they cancelled it before it hit the market.
They are learning, and getting better. But I think Ford has more desire to make affordable EVs, and Tesla is closer to being able to make them affordable and profitable than any other company.

 

agree on toyota phev's, but other mfg's sell in all 50 states. and ev's are slowly getting more affordable, and are not compliance cars in most cases.
look at tesla, they sell carb credits to mfg's who don't make enough plug ins or none at all.
bev prices keep coming down. tesla base model 3 at 42k less $7,500. tax credit is a truly affordable car in todays market.

 

To me, affordable is a $15,000 or less ICE car. An EV can be $5,000 more. $42,000 with no way to even use half the tax credit would mean divorce and living in said vehicle.

 

well, affordable is different for everyone. so the prius is not affordable. for you. or even a gas corolla

 

It can change with specifics, but a BEV can cost the same or less to own as an ICE car. You over looked the cost of fuel. While a fast DC charger can cost around that of a fill with premium gas, it is a minimum source for most owners. Many may never use one, nor any public charger. Then there is cases like it costing more to charge up a PiP at home than to run in hybrid mode.

BMW is Tesla's benchmark brand. Those models they use as performance and price point targets. A 330i's MSRP is $3500 more than a Model 3 RWD, and its 5 year costs are $18k more. While a Camry is priced $16k less than the Tesla, the ownership costs narrow to $12k. A Bolt EV ends up less than a Sonic, though you can't get a Sonic anymore.
2023 BMW 3 Series: True Cost to Own | Edmunds
2023 Tesla Model 3: True Cost to Own | Edmunds
2023 Toyota Camry: True Cost to Own | Edmunds
2023 Chevrolet Bolt EV: True Cost to Own | Edmunds
2020 Chevrolet Sonic: True Cost to Own | Edmunds

Hybrids are the way to go if overall costs is your sole concern. For whatever reason, they just don't sell well.
2023 Toyota Camry Hybrid: True Cost to Own | Edmunds

When Toyota was selling that many Prius a year, it was a limited market of hybrids, and gas prices were high. Hybrid sales in general tend to follow gas prices in the US. Then as more competitors came to market, they mostly took Prius sales instead of ICE ones. With the gen5 hybrid, Toyota has decided to plan production to around that of the last generation's sales instead of risking over production. Current market conditions means that favors the sellers even more. It is just the first year too. Production ramp up takes time.

In the case of PHEVs, Toyota simply didn't believe in plug ins. They didn't expect the market to grow so quickly, and secured battery supplies to match their expectations. They had only planned on 5000 Rav4P's in the US the first year. Getting batteries to meet demand now would cost them more, assuming they could find any.

The Rav Prime has an 18+kWh battery. The Prius is 13+kWh. The addition of the big battery and charger is the only substantial difference between the Prii models. The Rav4P also gets much more powerful traction motors than the hybrid, which requires upgrading the inverters and controllers. On top of that, it has a faster charger than the PriusP.

I think your old VW diesel is roomier than the ICE $15k will buy these days.

 

Don't tempt me! It still runs and is still in my name!

My Prius did only cost me $300 and it does technically run.

 

Have you tried to rent a vehicle since people started coming out from the Pandemic?

For much of the past decade, I've been doing a 400 mile (each way) trip for elder care and family farm work, off the good recharging grid, roughly every six weeks. In all weather, including severe winter weather. Though now that the elder care portion is over, that frequency will now be winding down quite significantly.

As for the vacation use, while we don't do a cross-continent trip often, we do several trips of that style each year. I've been in the market for a particular PHEV for three years, but "supply and demand" has kept the prices well above MSRP, it wasn't being shipped to dealers in my state at all until early last month, and dealers in the neighboring state that were getting them, weren't allowed to sell it to buyers at my distance from their border until a couple months ago. Most of the random regional drivers with this model that I've talked too, bought them on the opposite coast.

Certain EVangelists keep suggesting how to change our trips to fit the existing charging network. Much of it by abandoning our own travel style and interests and activities and converting to their very different style and interests.

I've mentioned numerous times that if still commuting, I'd have acquired an EV long ago. But at my last commute, my first hybrid was still young, and the Leaf was not yet sufficiently matured. In our multi-car household, the best slot for a short range EV is my spouse's daily driver, but she isn't yet willing to part with the Integra I bought for her 34 years ago. A medium range EV would now cover even more of our use, including to a respectable portion of our recreational areas. But the household's long range travel vehicle still needs to be PHEV, not pure BEV.

EVs are currently good for a much larger fraction of the vehicle market than they are now getting. But not for as large a fraction as certain EVangelists portray.

 

I'd say that if you do that kind of driving, then yes, an EV is out of the question unless you were of the most fanatic of EV enthusiasts.

I must say, that the 600 mile trip (one way) that I do rather regularly that used to have only one place to charge in the middle (L2 or better) back when I had the 24kWh Leaf now has several DCQC stations along the entire route.

Right?! I'm not sure if I'll ever try to rent a car ever again!

 

I'm just about done paying off the Avalon that cost me $15,000 with a $5,000 down payment, which ends up being almost $190 per month.

If I get another car I would guess I'd have at least $5,000 of worth left in the Avalon or, over time, will have saved up $5,000 from not having a car payment. So $5,000 down (or trade in) on the following cars means I'd have to pay monthly:

• Tesla M3 $42k = $700/month
• with $7.5kTC = $560/month
• Prius P is about $560/month
• Camry HV $30k = $470/month
• Corolla HV $24.5k = $370/month
• Used Avalon HV* $15k = $190/month

But that doesn't include fuel. Right now I spend around $200 per month, so I'd guess I'd spend about the same in a Camry or Corolla hybrid. If electricity is around 1/3 that then:

• Tesla M3 $42k = $860/month
• M3 with $7.5kTC = $720/month
• Prius P $34.5k = $720/month
• Camry HV $30k = $670/month
• Corolla HV $24.5k = $570/month
• Used Avalon HV* $15k = $390/month

None of those figures include insurance or maintenance or depreciation. But $390 on my *current car is a lot less than $860 even if the insurance and maintenance ends up being the same, which I would suspect won't be the case.

But interestingly, if you can get the full tax credit, the Tesla Model 3 and the Prius Prime are very close in price.

 

cars are expensive

 

Even fully paid for (we have 2) I budget $1,000 per year for ea. vehicle, insurance, registration, maintenance, etc. even though we put 2,000 miles on our 08 and 6,000 miles on our 17.