Am I a bad person???

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PacMan @ Nov 13 2007, 02:42 PM) [snapback]539009[/snapback]</div>

GM is planning to introduce the Love and Bunny Kisses flex-fuel option in the 2009 model year.

Tom

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(qbee42 @ Nov 15 2007, 01:07 PM) [snapback]540183[/snapback]</div>

And still no Volt...tsk I say, tsk.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Earthling @ Nov 15 2007, 01:53 PM) [snapback]540096[/snapback]</div>

Well, we can agree on the fuel-economy front. The closest they can get is with the Aveo (34mpg) and the Focus (35mpg).

Though, the standard Civic doesn't get 40mpg anymore (36mpg), either. Nor does the Fit (34mpg), Corolla (37), or Yaris (36). So...the only cars that can do that are the more expensive hybrid versions.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ Nov 15 2007, 05:08 PM) [snapback]540215[/snapback]</div>

In "real world" testing CR got much less. Isn't the Aveo assembled in South Korea by Daewoo?

CR managed to get 35 city, 50 highway, out of their new test Prius. The same test regime, they got 19 city and 38 highway out of an autobox Aveo. The stickshift gets 1 mpg less highway

As far as snickering about high gas prices, that's rude in any book. Anybody who does that, don't go whining to a cop when the person fueling up their SUV gets so angry they beat the s*** out of you. There are a lot of borderline psychotic nutjobs out there

They're allowed to drive, vote, and reproduce.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ Nov 15 2007, 10:29 AM) [snapback]540080[/snapback]</div>

You're right. The degredation and the ability to degrade has gotten much worse since then..... MarinJohn is correct.

Millenium Ecosystem Assessment

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brad34695 @ Nov 14 2007, 06:21 PM) [snapback]539698[/snapback]</div>

Here's my econ 102 recollections...

In a traditional market, when cost of raw materials is sky rocketing the producer would be getting screwed. They can't raise the price of their product without lowering the supply of demand and loosing volume. In contrast, oil products are more of a necessity in our current lives/economy. In this type of market, the supply of demand curve is almost flat giving the producer huge latitude in where he sets the price. In theory this is checked by competition, unless you get into a monopoly or oligopoly situation, where a small number of large producers divide up the market and tacitly agree on similar prices. In this case, rising raw material costs provide the excuse for raising prices. People still have to buy just about the same amount. This sets the stage for huge corporate profits, as we have been seeing in the oil industry. The only ways out of this situation are generally a. regulation, to artificialy limit the producers ability to move prices around, b. new competition (find any huge unclaimed oil reserves lately?), or c. to make the good less of a necessity.

Buying a significantly more efficient car is a pretty good way to contribute to c. If most car buyers shifted toward a vehicle that was 2-3 times more efficient than the average 20mpg, we would have a pretty big impact on our overall fuel consumption, foreign oil consumption, and environmental impact.

Anybody who tries to convince you that a prius is dirtier than any other car is misinformed, trying to sell something, or feeling guilty about their own transportation choices. As a fairly light vehicle, the Prius uses considerably less steel than many other vehicles (which is a very dirty industry). The 60 lbs of nickel in the batteries is safe enough that we carry it around in our pockets as spare change. There's probably more nickel in the chrome and stainless components on an average SUV these days anyway. Far from being expensive to dispose of, the copper and nickel that make this car different from others is inherently valuable ensuring that these components will be recycled. Toyota already offers a $200 bounty for dead hybrid batteries. The electrolyte in the NimH batteries is KOH. Basically draino. I wouldn't want to drink it (if it were in liquid form) but it is easily neutralized with vinegar and safe enough to pour down the drain. Not true of the sulfuric acid contained in all cars batteries. Take away the HV battery and electric motors and you are left with a somewhat lighter than usual mid sized car, with its usual compliment of plastics and metals. No more or less toxic or expensive to dispose of/recycle. Despite its technological complexity, you are actually looking at a vehicle that is far less mechanically complex than the average car.

Lastly, I am a big fan of public transportation. Unfortunately our public transportation system in this country is bordering on criminally negligent. You also can't overlook that public transportation is not fuel/carbon free. No hugs and bunny kisses powered buses/subways yet to my knowledge.

Using the numbers from the American Public Transportation Association
http://www.apta.com/research/info/online/climate_change.cfm
it looks like this:
Metric tonnes:
16,229,313--CO2 Emissions from Personal Vehicle Travel To Substitute for Transit Travel
12,320,964--CO2 Emissions from Transit Travel
3,908,349---CO2 Emissions Savings from Transit Travel Instead of Personal Vehicle Travel
3,020,424---CO2 Emissions Savings from Fuel Savings Due to Transit Caused Congestion Reduction
6,928,773---Total CO2 Emissions Savings From Transit in 2005

The personal travel portion of this calculation uses a base assumption of 1 lb CO2 per person mile traveled. This is pretty reasonable, equating to about 20mpg or just about the US average for light duty vehicles. So, lets repeat the calculation using 50mpg hybrids.

6,491,725---CO2 Emissions from 50mpg Hybrid To Substitute for Transit Travel
12,320,964--CO2 Emissions from Transit Travel (70% fossil fuels)
3,020,424---CO2 Emissions Savings from Fuel Savings Due to Transit Caused Congestion Reduction
-2,808,815--Total CO2 Emissions Savings From Transit in 2005 vs. 50mpg Hybrids

Sadly the US public transportation system is so under-utilized, under-available, and inefficient that we are currently better off driving a hybrid. Move this to 100mpg plug in hybrids like the calcars folks (and several people on this board, hopefully soon to include myself) are already building and the fossil fuel usage and CO2 reduction gets even better. Hybrids and plugin Hybrids may not be the long term answer, but for now they are by far the best thing out there. In the long run we need to put major investments into our public transportation and national rail systems, and rethink our urban sprawl/consumptionist way of life.

Rob

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob Smith @ Nov 15 2007, 06:41 PM) [snapback]540336[/snapback]</div>

Rob, I believe you are on the right track here but keep in mind that different forms of public transportation use different amounts of energy/per passanger. There is also the problem of land use for roadways, parking, etc.

An older study but this provides a good example of what I mean. Link to sourse HERE. More information can be found be reading "State of the World 2007 - Our Urban Future"

Overall modal energy efficiencies in the global sample of cities, 1990

Mode MJ per passenger kilometre / Measured average vehicle occupancy
(average all cities) (average all cities)
Car 2.91 / 1.52
Bus 1.56 / 13.83
Heavy Rail (electric) 0.44 / 30.96
Heavy Rail (diesel) 1.44 / 27.97
Light Rail/Tram 0.79 / 29.73

Note: Rail mode occupancies are given on the basis of the average loading per wagon, not per train. The average occupancy of cars is a 24 hour figure.


These data reveal that urban car travel is on average nearly 2 times as energy consumptive as average urban bus travel, 6.6 times more energy intensive than average urban electric train travel and 3.7 times more than typical light rail or tram system travel. Light rail and tram systems typically operate in environments requiring a lot more stopping and starting than heavy rail, with much closer station spacings than heavy rail. So although their average loading is similar to heavy rail, their energy efficiency is a little poorer.

The data in Table 4 also show that diesel rail is only a little more fuel-efficient on average than an urban bus and that average train wagon occupancies are roughly equal across types; they are on average more than twice that of buses and about 20 times higher than cars. Overall, these data re-emphasise the importance of developing a good backbone of electric rail in cities if energy conservation is to be enhanced. Those cities without such systems are the ones with very high gasoline use."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PacMan @ Nov 14 2007, 12:45 AM) [snapback]539280[/snapback]</div>

I'm sorry if I was misleading in my statements. I don't disagree with anything you said. I am proud of my Prius because its the best thing currently available. I take pride in doing my best to beat the EPA ratings of the vehicle. I'm proud that it puts out a lot less smog emissions and CO2 than most vehicles. That doesn't make it the end all be all. I'm currently working on a plug in conversion based on the calcars plans to bump it to 100mpg+. I wish Toyota would get off their butts and release a commercial version of this. That doesn't make me perfect, but at least I'm trying to do something. We all do what we can, but its frustrating sometimes how little most people seem to do.

I take no pleasure in the clear impact rising fuel costs have on the vast numbers of genuinely struggling people out there. Its shocking to me that 35% of our population has a family gross income of under $30,000 a year. But if higher gas prices are the only way to make things change, what can we do?

rob

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Nov 15 2007, 10:28 PM) [snapback]540369[/snapback]</div>

Very good data, thanks. I absolutely believe this is where we have to go in the long run. Given how long its taking and how much its costing to build a single 20 mile electric light rail line in Phoenix, I know its going to take time. Ironic that we had 32 miles of street railway in 1920 In the mean time, we do what we can.

rob

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob Smith @ Nov 15 2007, 07:56 PM) [snapback]540380[/snapback]</div>

I hear ya Rob. It's a tough battle to re-evaluate our social norms and values and make the switch but I think it's possible. I also think you would enjoy the State of the World books as they are about as unbiased as you can get and always touch on the economic impacts of various problems and solutions. In this version in particular, they detail how building a proper infrastructure for mass transit can automatically win over many travelers by sheer convience. The tough part is getting tax payers to ante up the funds to get it started like you mentioned. Maybe we can look to places like Curitiba or Melbourne for examples.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Nov 15 2007, 11:01 PM) [snapback]540381[/snapback]</div>

I am optimistic, just know that things take time. I think the Salt lake City Light Rail has been a pretty good model for Phoenix. Its been wildly successful, much to the surprise of many. Phoenix is pretty similar in terms of demographics, geography, and attitudes so I hope our will do as well. I live down town, just about a mile off the line, so we can't wait! There is a ton of speculative building (residential and commercial) going on along the line, so I am hoping that buzz carries over after it opens. I was pretty surprised that the tax payers here went for it, but it passed by a healthy margin so maybe there's hope

rob

 

I have been thinking about this topic quite a bit since my last post a few days ago, and I believe I have come up with the answer - HORSES. Here are some of the pros and cons.

PROS:
Horses are renewable resources.
They dont use any oil.
They dont produce harmful byproducts during their production.
They break down quickly in landfills.
Can be recycled into Dogfood, Glue, and McDonalds Cheeseburgers. (The increased supply of expired horses should make them chepaer than kangaroo meat)
Safer in a wreck.
Everyone can gripe about Clydesdales instead of Hummers
Americans would become luckier due to finding more horseshoes
Carrot and Oat farmers would benifit
Using a treadmill, a carrot, and a generator, a horse could power your house during a power outage


Cons:
Hard to fit the smart key option.
Easier to steal (Slightly) than cars.
Small family owned blacksmiths would be run out of business by the giant horseshoe corporations
Its like driving a convertable that you cant put the top up on
Might offend PETA
American horses would be bred have 8 legs, Japanese horses would stay with 4. Suzuki horses would have 3 and VW horses would have 5. Jaguar horses would have 12.
They dont run off of love and bunny kisses.

 

This seems pretty ridiculous now, but at the time, cars were considered less polluting than horses.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Nov 16 2007, 11:44 AM) [snapback]540635[/snapback]</div>

Well, that sounds like a bunch of Horse Sh!t to me!