Admit Nothing

This ugly situation suggests that it would be worthwhile for Toyota to add polarity protection to the jump point. On one hand whomever is at fault it can't be good for Toyota to gain a reputation for selling cars that are easy to damage so expensively. On the other hand no customer wants to risk expensive damage because of a very easy mistake; no matters who pays for it it's still a big inconvenience.

I'd bet that a retrofit kit for the jump point would be a viable aftermarket product.

 

Would seem to me that a healthy rectifier on the positive battery lead would completely eliminate the problem. You might be able to smoke the battery, but everything upstream would be protected.

I will see what I can find... I have never (in 30 years) hooked jumper cables up backwards, but the first time sounds like it could be expensive.

Les ---

 

Fine, then send management out of the room and let me talk to the tech. I'd rather have a conversation about what happened than about what the bureaucracy can't do for me.

I've gone round & round with a service manager (over a brake job) and finally asked to take a tech along for a test drive. 30 seconds after starting the test drive the problem was all better, thanks to the tech and not to the "gatekeeper". Same thing with a transmission noise.

With my experience as a troubleshooting supervisor, I'd hesitate to tell a tech (let alone a service manager) anything that I didn't personally do or directly observe. My comment like "I thought it might be this problem..." can all too often lead someone off the troubleshooting trail, and I have no idea whether that person is someone who has the experience to avoid getting sucked into it.

In a doctor's office, an offhand comment like "Isn't this a cancer symptom?" can cause the doctor to think "Ruh-roh" and to order up a bunch of (technically unecessary) tests to set the patient's mind at ease and avoid potential malpractice issues. Maybe service managers think the same way.

 

In all my years of dealing with service work (warranty) I've never had a service writer communicate my problems accurately on a service order.
So I've never made sense of wasting a great deal of time elaborating.

 

Keeping in mind that a silicon diode has 0.7V voltage drop when conducting, it may not be a good idea to have the diode in the circuit when the jump is correctly connected. Hence my idea would be to connect the diode's cathode terminal to the current jumpstart terminal, and the anode terminal connected to ground (i.e., a crowbar). Then put a 50A fuse between the current jumpstart terminal and a new terminal, which will become the new jumpstart terminal.

If the jumpstart is correctly done, the diode has no effect. If the jumpstart is reversed, the diode will conduct and pop the 50A fuse.

 

The series diode would be less parts and easier to recover from, rather than replacing fuse for crowbar configuration. I don't think voltage drop across diode is a big concern if all you're doing is jump starting. Starter motors are usually series wound devices and are more current dependent than voltage. Besides the jumper cables usually introduce a voltage drop.
One might consider using a germanium or schottky diode as alternative to silicon, if voltage drop is an issue.

 

"Jump" starting a Prius ? I presume so since I hope we all know jumping FROM a Prius is a big no-no (unless it's Prius to Prius perhaps.)

AFAIK, all the Prius needs to start is enough for computers, sensors, injectors etc. No 100 Amp starter motors; ICE startup is handled by MG2 and the HV battery.

I suspect the needs are 10 Amps or less. So no problem, IMO. Even if voltage was a problem, the 12v donor car can be left running which generally provides plenty of extra voltage over 12; like 13.5-14 or so.

Anyone want to be the pioneer in creating the "Series diode jump protection mod" that Toyota should have put in at the factory... ?

An alternative mod would be a small 12v backup battery on a switch. If the Prius only needs 10 amps or so for a few seconds to be "jump started", then perhaps a small battery pack would be sufficient. And no jumper cables or donor car required. Since my wife will drive at least occasionally, I think I'll do this backup battery mod.

Anyway, I think the existence of, and proving of this mod's protection, would give ammunition to anyone having their Prius held for $5k ransom by Toyota dealers for something Toyota could have probably added for $10 a car.

 

Voltage drop is a major concern in a low voltage, high current circuit. And, voltage drop is directly proportional to current; the more current the more voltage drop. I agree that jumper cables introduce further voltage drop, I just don't believe that's any reason to ignore the same in other parts of the jump start circuit.

Patrick Wong's idea is excellent; the diode stays out of the working circuit until a reverse polarity connection is made.

Maybe using a 50A circuit breaker instead of a fuse would strike a good balance between hassle and loss of wallet.

 

I think there's some confusion as to where certain posts are contemplating the location of the rectifier.

My understanding is the rectifier location being proposed is between the jump start terminal (which may be imaginary right now) and the battery terminal; not the battery terminal and the vehicle positive lead.

Placing the rectifier in the latter location should protect the vehicle circuits and based on your analysis may be a darn good idea.

It does leave the battery open to reverse polarity mistakes and maybe that's not such a big deal, after all batteries are relatively cheap.

If the vehicle electronics are current sippers as you postulate, there really is no excuse for Toyota to leave them wide open to a reverse polarity error.

 

but if you apply that universally, and say the problem was some crappy aftermarket cd player you had the next door neighbor's kid install...

that's where you see someone with an axe to grind.

those were jumped on the underhood terminal. there were scorch marks present. but you can get scorch marks if say your headlights are on when you hook up cables, even if you do it right. so scorch marks unfortunately aren't a 100% indicator of anything.

 

I am a certified Saturn mech.
Seamus hit it right on the head.
We get x dollars per hr according to what Saturn tells us a job should take. Brakes 15 min Muffler 20 min Window Regulator 1hr etc
The dealership then puts y on top of the pe hr charge. So the bill is X+Y+Parts+* + taxes(if applicable) = Your Bill
SO even tho you are paying a flippin HUGE bill for labor we the actual wrench turners don't get that much and that is for non-warranty work.
For Warranty work peanuts is an overstatement.
One dealership I worked for told us that Cash jobs take priority.
So on warranty jobs Don't diagnose. Replace. on Cash Jobs diagnose.. Check.. Double Check... Count hrs... then replace. ( I left. My ethics collided with their bottom line.)
btw the * in my calculations are the hidden fees.
misc parts fees. waste disposal fee. Fuel Surcharge fee. etc

Unscrupeulous heck yeah. Do I like it ... No...can I do anything about it...(I quit) Open my own shop. (can I afford that nope) Can YOU the Customer do anything about it???
Yes... If you have the ability (i.e. multiple dealerships).. Find out if the dealrship has a membership to the local Chamber of Commerce or the Better Business Bureau ( Please stop Laughing it's only a suggestion).. Call around to different dealerships. Ask their per hour labor charge. Is there a Diagnostic charge. What are their standard "fees".
The Reputable dealerships will give you simple things to check before telling you to bring it in. Pit dealerships against each other for your business.
Most of us techs want to get your car fixed quickly. Kinda a Car-ma thing.
We take care of you.. You are happy.. you tell other people.... they bring in their cars.. we have more business... etc...
Some of us like talking to customers it builds a trust relationship.
Most of the time Service Writers are not technically inclined OR they know just enough to be dangerous and cause major headaches. It is the Service Managers job to make sure that they don't open their mouths and offer opinions. We.. the dealership... replaced a radiator on a car that was WELL beyond the warranty (like 45k + 3 yrs over) because the big dummy mentioned that he has seen quite a number of cars in that year need replacements. So.. in the spirit of customer service we gave them 600 dollars worth of free service and fired the writer. oh and the Tech (me) didn't get a dime for the work. bastards


Misslexi.. In Post 3 you said that you had a cd changer issue.
The Aux-in jack is connected to your Radio. I don't know the specifics of your issue. The radio senses that there is something plugged into the jack. If there was an issue with the jack or the wire used to connect your SIRIUS radio to the jack... there is still a small amount of voltage flowing into the radio. I have seen stranger things cause weirder problems.
Please refer to comment about service writer. He shouldn't have opened his trap but I see where he was going.

Andyprius.. In post 13 you stated that "There is no wasted time, car will not start, go to battery. Hybrid or non-hybrid "
True... But the big question is WHY??? Battery Died... defective Battery? Ground issue causing discharge... Faulty voltage regulator on/in the alternator (older cars had external voltage regs opposed to newer all-in-one alt/regs) causing insufficiant rate of charge.. Overdraw by something.. Or DIVINE INTERVENTION!!!! Diagnostics cost time and money.

Ginnie... I feel for you. I really do. I read your entire post and the dealership can damn well get the thing replaced under warranty. Regardless of it is a faulty part or not.
@ 5k on the odo you don't question you just replace it.. chaulk it up to the carma gods and call it a day. Warranty work pays an hourly rate.He won't make a profit on the part but if he eats this now and makes you happy ..who knows you might have come back later for a cash job. Personal opinion is that the service mgr wasn't making his cash numbers that week and saw you as his ticket.
Please don't lump all of us dealership employees into the same boat.

The intent of this post was not to say who is right and who is wrong. I don't have all the details. What I am trying to say is the entire dealership service network is not out to milk every penny. The reputation dealerships have gotten is due to the true a-holes out there. Most of them will do you right. As with everything there is some homework that you can perform to make sure you don't get porked. It just so happens that Ginnie got a real winner.

Enough of the soapbox
G'night y'all...

BTW
2007 Silver Package 1 (Inservice Feb 07)
42/40 tyres
0w20 syn
49.1 over 35k miles
Last paid 3.99/US gallon Haverhill MA rt 110 Gulf
Last Tank 485 mi (cheaper today than tomorrow to refill)

Karl

 

Karl, thanks much for your inside view of the auto repair business. Do you think things are pretty much the same at the Toyota dealerships ? Please feel free to start a new thread if this gets to off-topc for "Admit Nothing".

In the early 80's I worked as a tech in business/industrial computer-electronics repair. I'm sure we both could tell stories of customers who were wronged in some way, big or small, but that's just part of the business. On the plus side, in my field, it wasn't "poor average people" footing the bills, it was companies, so there were fewer "Widows and orphans" footing some extreme and pseudo-random bills.

I'm active here on PriusChat because I want to know everything I can about Prius so I can do my own diagnosis. I would VERY much prefer, if I have any warranty issues, to give a full account of symptoms, as well as my diagnosis and recommendation. Perhaps even my "demand" if I fell I'm getting dicked around.


"Admit nothing" IMO is more for the average car driver, with little knowledge of inner workings. Those people can and sometimes are "dicked around" by dealers looking for excuses to convert low paying warranty work into high paying non-warranty.

Get arrested: Say nothing before you speak to a lawyer.
Get in an accident: Do not admit fault, no matter what.
Have your Prius blowup unexpectedly: Make no admission of any fault until you see a qualified independent mechanic or discuss it here on PC.



..................

 

Under the "admit nothing" clause, I can speak of personal experience with my Prius.

Some on this forum might recall the first two oil changs were dealer freebies, using dealership bulk lube oil. I then switched to Mobil 1 and, the very next oil change, had a sample for testing. Mistake #1: not sampling the crap dealership oil

The lab actually called me at work, they had alarming results. In particular, sky-high Na levels, along with some sulfur, nitration, oxidation, and trace dirt and moisture.

I did another sample and changed the oil, myself. The numbers were better but the testing lab was still concerned. So I made copies of the test reports and dropped them off at the dealership. They contacted Toyota Canada. Note: the dealership was always responsible to me, I never had an issue with them, except for what became apparent system-wide practice regarding bulk lube oil

Toyota Canada contacted me, and pretty much were complete dickheads with me. Mobil 1 was to blame, was ruining my motor, my warranty was probably over, etc etc

So I got ExxonMobil involved, and they assigned an engineer to my case. We chased a lot of dead ends, including oil from the same lot as mine, to no effect. After brainstorming and probably heavy drinking (Me for sure, I suspect the EM engineer was also s***faced by this point!) we suddenly realized we needed a sample of the dealership oil

Well. That stuff was complete garbage, and apparently in complete accordance with Toyota Canada. As an engineer, I primarily design industrial process control equipment, but am familiar with bulk lube systems.

Although the source lube was - and still is - highly suspect, the way Toyota Canada implemented the bulk lube system was complete crap. I sure hope they read forums like this, as I'm going to reiterate:

Bulk lube systems are remarkably easy to contaminate. It's absolutely critical to have a desiccant breather system on the tote bin to prevent dirt ingress and moisture from normal venting. The dealership manager - once I explained my qualifications - readily encouraged me to examine his bulk lube system

The breather was a simple inverted pipe with a screen, to keep out mice and bugs. Thus, the entire system was contaminated and would require extensive cleaning, along with retrofitting a desiccator

Apparently, TC does not require or recommend this, and the dealership didn't want to face the expense of this alone. AFAIK they're still running it as is

EM presented their findings to TC, who very promptly STFU regarding any threats about my engine warranty. If TC had been nicer and way more reasonable, I wouldn't have been such a dick in return

I'm very willing to work with an individual or a corporation to find a solution, but if they start acting like dickheads, I can be quite nasty in return

 

Skyrider117 is right of course, not all dealers are out to grind every last cent off their customers.

At my age I've pretty much seen them all, in fact for about 7 years I worked (as a software consultant) for a dealership chain.

One thing I recall from those days is that dealerships are closely watched by the manufacturers as to their volume of warranty claims. Dealerships with too much warranty volume used to get penalized by the manufacturers. I have no idea where they came up with the thresholds, probably looked at historical averages. Accordingly, the dealerships kept a sharp eye on warranty work. I was told that once a new measurement period started, they were less likely to take a hard line on classifying repairs as covered under warranty, as the period approached cutoff, they would become more inflexible. Always with a keen eye on not going over the threshold.

I do remember too that each procedure classified as warranty came with a fixed amount of clock time set by the manufacturer. And yes, there are times when the tech and the dealership get bent over by a tough one. There are also plenty of times where the time budget includes a healthy side serving of gravy. My guess is it all comes out in the wash.

Behind the dealership scenes aside, I can't see how trying to stick it to a customer who recently purchased a new vehicle, as happened to Ginny, is a good idea. That kind of nonsense will come back to haunt them, eventually.

 

Hmm, this won't be easy - how about this:

Let A = current jump start terminal
Let B = new jump start terminal
Let ~ = 50A fast blow fuse
Let _____ = wire connections
__ is a 25V or more, 100A silicon diode; cathode end on top and anode on bottom.
/\

Ignore the ......., this is just to space out the characters

A _______ __ ____ ~ ____ B
.............../\
...............|
...............|
...........Ground

 

Hi Andy,

I'm not sure that Radio Shack would carry this. I usually buy electronics components from Mouser Electronics. Try their website and see if you can find what you need. For example:
Diodes (RF, Signal, Switching, Power)

Note minimum order qty of 30 in this case given the filters that I set; however if you adjust the filters maybe you can find a suitable diode in-stock.