ABC news report on Hybrids tonight

You've used this example before and I've said this before. It's a fallacy to use this example to prove in any way that the Buick gets better or equal mileage than the Prius.

It may be a real case, but it is certainly not a controlled experiment. Your two sisters in law... are they absolute clones of each others? Do they live in identical towns, with identical weather, with identical traffic?

Since you've used this example before, i already know the answer. They live thousands of miles away.

The only thing you've proven is that there is something in the circumstance of your sister with a Prius that is causing her to have worse mileage than the sister with a Buick. That is NOT necessarily the car.

 

My point is that a portion of the outstanding mileage of the Prius is the driver input. I am going to drive one next week and I am very interested as to how it will respond to my driving. And by the way both of the forementioned persons would be classified as below-average drivers, the Prius owner can not get it started at least twice per month.

 

How are sales in your corner of the world?

 

I think the main difference is in the sensitivity of the vehicle. The Prius would not do well driven by drivers that do not take care of their vehicles. Judging by the owners on Prius Chat I would say most Prius owners are very enthusiastic about their Prius ownership.

 

Malorn,

Any way to get those sisters to switch cars for a month?

Jan

 

well i have to speak up here. gm's quality doesnt really lag behind Toyota's that much or any other maker for that matter. that is not the problem

its their marketing and product development decisions that will kill them. it took the runaway success of every hybrid made (ya every hybrid... Priuses are popular sure, but there is not a ready supply of ANY kind of hybrid around no matter who the maker) before gm would grudgingly admit that the hybrid was an option. (lets face it, they pretty much said that they would make one because everyone seems to want one but would not be happy doing so)

gm still insists on stuffing oversized, under-performing vehicles down our throat. the hummer 3 is a prime example of a company that is totally clueless. and any company that is that stupid should be shut down. i dont mean wait till they go broke because every day they are in business they put this country farther and farther into the hole. half of the hummers sold today will still be on the road in the year 2022. can we really afford to let them continue to sell those types of vehicles???

 

Well Dave I agree with you on all your points, except the quality part. I will say they have improved enough that you don't notice it too much until 75K and beyond, but the idea of driving 200K without major issues is pretty rare.
My wife drives a beautiful Cirrus with only a 2.4 liter engine and she only gets 22 to 23 MPG and the engine is already loosing oil so bad that it may be down below the stick before its even time for an oil change!.... we are only putting 10W-30 in it. It only has about 75K miles on it?

I for one am tired and tired and tired of believing the new lie that they have finally gotten thier quality up to par, just to get burnn't again and Cars are devalued so fast, you can't even get your money back out of it by any stretch of the imagination. They have such deceptive commercials that gender quality and reliability.
They don't want thier rigs to last.. then you wouldn't be buying another for the next 10 years. I'm sure they're pretty peeved at Toyota for messing up their little pay party!

The factory warranty really tells the story.

So you're stuck with a nice piece of crap that should get you 2 - 3 times more mileage before having such stupid problems. Engines should not leak unless they are 300.00 pieces of crap!
My Jeep Cheerekee has 155K on it and it has done quite well, but there is no consistency as to what to expect when buying an American rig.

It would be wonderful to trash GM and only use rigs that are trustworthy. One thing American companies are good at and known for... are promises, promises, promises. I do expect more for a 20K+ rig. I think thats exactly what the public is doing "trashing" GM!

Dave, I also agree that their Product development has made really crappy decisions.
But marketing has dealt treacherously with the american public. Rather than being honest and focusing on a good product, they lie and decieve with pure image and promises.
When it comes to marketing I really don't believe there is any hope. Thier credibility stinks in the publics eye. They are finally reaping what they have sown. They have lost the American trust. We have been promised and lied to so many times, we feel like a date that has been dumped over and over. We cannot trust and will not take the chance for a 20K+gamble.

We now have better to choose from.

The only people that make out when buying GM cars are the ones who lease, or have enough money that they buy new again within 3 years and don't mind burning money.

I know Dealers like Malorn love dealing in a product that forces the public to have to buy again and again every few years, but its not working anymore. People are finally wiseing up. Like I said, the only people that don't mind dealing with GM's crappy quality, are the ones that have money to burn or don't stick around with the product long enough to get burn't... they get rid if it first!... Then there is always those who will "never" learn!

 

Your exactly right... I don't have any experience with the other foreign manufacturers as I have always owned american.

But some people will pay 75.00 for a pair of jeans with a label on it that promotes status. In the psychology of it all.. many times things sell better if it cost more!....even though they are not better than the 16.00 jeans at costco!..often worse! cause they have holes and wear already!.. the things we do for love! "or acceptance and popularity!"

People are influenced by advertising and marketing.
When will be go off of a track record?... force companies to be accountable for thier product by saying.... the last product I bought from you was poorly manufactured, I will not buy from you again!... but we fall for the lie over and over.
The ads give the image that everyone has one, so it must be good!
If everybody has one.. then why are they advertising?.. The prius is the only thing I know of that that sells like crazy without commercial advertising.

I am not qualified to speak of the other cars like Audi and the like. I'm assuming there are many fine automakers out there!... and there is alot of crap too!

I'm also assuming human nature is to stay loyal to your identity and try to stay with your own country's manufacturer... I always have!... thats what I have trusted. jbut now I'm defecting! Like the Russians who lived all thier life in bondage and harsh treatment... sometimes life is too short to not realize that defecting is the only answer!.. others will die with their tradition and miss out on so much!

 

You've used the wrong word again. You should've used "you're" in the above case, short for "you are".

I see Prius and Hybrid Synergy Drive ads on TV quite a bit and this is from someone who has a Tivo and blows thru almost all ads. If you go to maps.yahoo.com and get driving directions, you'll see an ad right underneath the distance and time for the Toyota Prius. It even invites me to enter my car's average mpg so that it can tell me how many dollars I can save if I had a Prius for the same trip.

Maybe *you* don't see Prius ads, but they sure exist here in California.

 

I disagree w/your first point. GM long term reliability is FAR behind Toyota and Honda overall. Go pick up the Consumer Reports Buying Guide Issue or an April auto issue and look at the reliability reports. You'll see what I'm talking about. There are some GM models that have far better reliability than many German cars like most Mercedes, most VWs, most Audis and some BMWs...

I agree w/you that GM is *far* behind in terms of offering hybrids to consumers and in terms of informing the public that they even MAKE hybrids. GM does have the mild hybrid Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra trucks. Don't laugh, Toyota has mild hybrids too like a version of the Toyota Crown. No it doesn't exist in the US. GM has had hybrid busses since 2003 http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_te...b_timeline.html, but yes, this is much later than Toyota's and Honda's first offering and is useless to the American car buyer.

They are coming out w/some more hybrids, but none of them are in the same segment as the HCH, Insight and Prius.

 

Take a hard look, GM does not have crappy quality. GM has the three highest quality plants in North America. Initial Quality or long-term quality GM is right there with Toyota. If you get into Dealership quality, sales and service, Toyota stinks.

 

I have to stick my oar in this water with a Quiz.

Is there an American made car that is almost as difficult to get as a Prius?
What American car is now only compared to the most expensive cars in the world?
What American car often gets MSRP+ and is presold months in advance of release.
What American car is voted the best EVERY year by Road&Track, Motor Trend, Car&Driver, Autoweek, et al? (based on consumer poll results)
Who are the "unfortunate and ignorant" people who buy this car?
What "loser" company makes this American car?
Why does this company insist on continuing production when this apparently goes against the public view of their company?

Well, the answer to all of the above is: GM makes the Chevrolet Corvette and Z06. $20,000 more than a Prius, only 2 seats, not a practical family car, all true, however it does get great gas mileage, but you don't buy a Corvette to be practical, you buy it because it makes you feel good. GM makes a car that makes you feel good!

Prius owners feel good about their car. The reasons may be different, but the result is the same. You feel good!

This thread has everyone feeling bad, especially those that choose an American car. I happen to know women, gays, lesbians, bikers, lawyers and doctors who drive Corvettes (and from the poll here, their Prius). An odd bunch of people all with one thing in common, their car makes them feel good, for whatever reason.

Let's get out of each others faces and get on with enjoying our cars!

 

"You can challenge my point, but not with three examples of which the most recent is 12 years old. You can do better than that."

Sure I can! I've been burned three times, and won't make the same mistake again. Each time, GM promised that THIS time they got it right, and quality was going to beat the Japanese. The trend was downward instead.

Every year for 20 years GM has promised that their quality was on a par with competition, and that THIS year they would turn around their market share slide. Neither has happened yet. And yet you think I should buy a fourth mistake?

My VWs lasted 300K+ miles. The Corolla lasted 200K and ran better than the Buick did at 100K when I turned both in for the Prius.

All else equal, I'd buy American. But despite the self-serving advertising hype, things still aren't equal.

 

Good point, for whatever reason, you car needs to make you feel good!
Otherwise what good is it?

 

I don't agree here. You're referring to JD Power's studies which I don't find very credible. I find Consumer Reports to be more accurate. JD's initial quality studies are pretty meaningless. There's not much correlation between initial quality and long term reliability.

Even so, take a look at http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/press....asp?ID=2005089, would you really want to buy a Buick or Cadillac? GM has many nameplates that are doing worse than Toyota and Lexus. The highest ranked compact car, the Chevy Prizm is no longer made and is a close cousin of the Toyota Corolla and was built by the NUMMI plant in Fremont (joint venture between Toyota and GM). They still build the Corolla there along w/ the Pontiac Vibe (also based on the Corolla and a twin of the Toyota Matrix).

Take a look at
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/us...-worst-1205.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-1...cars-usat_x.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/money/2004-11-08-reliable-cars.htm

Notice there are no Toyotas and Lexuses (Lexi?) in the bad bets or least reliable category and plenty of GM vehicles.

 

Really? It sure seemed like it was your point that the Prius doesn't get as good of gas mileage as the Buick. I must have missed the threads that said that driver input does not impact MPG.

I think you are missing Laughingman's entire point that to compare the two mileage, you need to control the confounds. No one on here disputs that driver input is a major confound for MPG, as is trip length, road conditions, temperature and accompanying heater use, and a few other like traffic flow and such. Take the Buick out under the same conditions as you take the Prius out with as many variables as possible the same. That way, when you get the different MPG results you can attribute the MPG to the car and not to the other variables.

Comparing the driving patterns of two different individuals a thousand miles away as a real example of how the Prius gets worse MPG than the Buick is plain inaccurate. The truth is that the Prius is capable of getting 35 mpg under extreme conditions, but any conventional car will most likely not get even close to it under the same extreme conditions. In other words, put a Buick and a Prius in the same driver's hands under the same conditions and the Prius will also get better mileage.