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A workable Hydrogen Fuel Cell?

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by klodhopper, Jul 29, 2008.

  1. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    It is more likely that the heat is from the chemists' sweaty hands. :rolleyes:

    Tom
     
  2. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    ok. i guess i read it wrong. i didnt see the 60 mins report, i heard the NPR report on SciFri. they made it sound much less flaky than what you portray.

    as far as "fusion" goes, its probably a foregone conclusion to say that fusion may have not been the best term for what was observed in 1980's
     
  3. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Shawn, this is not supposed to be a self sustaining form of energy. To ask for evidence that it is self sustaining is missing the point.
    What I need to see (as I am skeptical as well), is for them to be able to reliably reproduce the experiment and get the same level of heat and/or energy with the same quantity of pallidium and energy put in.
     
  4. Fibb222

    Fibb222 New Member

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    As the 60 minutes report shows, they're studying the characteristics of the palladium to determine what affects when/if the reaction starts. Some sources of palladium have been more reliable than others.

    Also from the wired article:

    excerpt from the Los Alamos section Wired 6.11: What If Cold Fusion Is Real?
     
  5. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

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    The more I read about this, the more convinced I am that it is classic junk science. The neutrons aren't there. If they were the researchers would be dead. There are various anecdotal and self-contradictory accounts of finding pieces of the puzzle. Reminds me very much of the multitude of self-contradcitory theories by the global warming denial industry.

    In another 5 years we'll get the obligatory 25 year update on cold fusion, then the 30 years, then 40, then 50. And I'll bet nothing has changed by then either.
     
  6. Fibb222

    Fibb222 New Member

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    Ok that's fine - but DARPA nor the Pentagon share that view.

    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Advanced_Research_Projects_Agency[/ame]


    And you don't think this is interesting:

     
  7. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

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    Actually they do. This highly selective quoting above is typical of the snake oil approach of cold fusion's junk science.

    "Where's the beef?" Twenty years and hundreds of millions of dollars and they still haven't done the basic demonstration.
     
  8. Fibb222

    Fibb222 New Member

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    Oh they do, do they? Hmmmmm.....
     
  9. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Shawn, are you still of the opinion that they are looking for something that is self sustaining?
    They have repeated the tests in a number of labs across the world.
    Right now it is an anomalous generation of excess heat. They claim it has potential, but there are NO claims that this is fusion.
    There is potential for battery applications and yes, scientists have dreams, but no one is saying it is a finished product.
    Yes, we all want to see more research and better more reliable results. And I am not holding my breath, but I find it very interesting.
     
  10. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Perpetual motion, cold fusion, water-for-gas, religion... All you have to do is come up with a sexy sounding crackpot notion, and the world will beat a path to your door. It's supply and demand, and there is a seemingly limitless demand for bullshit in the world.
     
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  11. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    I think I've already covered the DARPA and SPAWAR rationale behind funding LENR in the other thread. Science projects like HAARP (High frequency Active Auroral Research Program) actively look at cutting edge science, like LENR, primarily for use as a defensive or offensive weapon

    It appears the reason LENR is receiving such public attention now (Has been receiving military support +15 years) is due to it being used as either a primary or intermediary power source for weapons. Directed energy weapons require a *lot* of energy, and are mostly impractical with current technology

    Eg the specially modified 747 that was to carry a laser, has been canceled. This program was completely impractical with current technology
     
  12. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Darn, I really wanted to fly that: "Boeing heavy five-kilo-alpha, be advised of a fuel truck incursion on the active...<sssssssZAP>...ah...scratch that, the runway is clear."

    Tom
     
  13. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Even better would be a trivial error with the complicated aiming system. So instead of hitting the target drone, an office building several counties away suddenly vaporizes. The Boeing crew would probably say

    "Um .... whoops!"
     
  14. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    So what do you need to work around that laser? SPF 20,000?

    Tom
     
  15. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    It's a Chemical Oxygen Iodine laser on the Boeing YAL-1 aircraft. Most of the literature is understandably scarce, but it's in the megawatt range.
     
  16. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Better up that sunblock to SPF 200,000. :cool:

    Tom
     
  17. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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  18. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

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    Of course. If it can't even keep itself going while it consumes some portion of the deuterium then it obviously is nothing like they claim. And they are claiming it is fusion, there is the rub.

    We've got junk science claims of 25, 50, and 100 times as much energy production as input. Yet for all that they can't rig up a demonstrator that powers itself after two decades? This really pegs out the BS meter.

    Integrated over the life of a run the heat production in no way matches their claims from what I can gather. It looks more like some sort of battery, an unreliable, unpredictable battery that can't be switched off and on by the operator at present. Interesting, yes, worth some study, yes. Cold fusion? Highly unlikely.

    The focus seems to be backward. They need to be trying to determine what is happening at the smallest scale and coming up with a mechanism that makes fundamental sense and can be tested. Do the basic science research first rather than trying to fast forward to applications. Instead they appear to be trying to saddle a unicorn. So folks like me respond, "Hey, if that's really a unicorn like you say, then I would like to take a ride." Only they haven't got a working saddle (demonstrator)...the unicorn has no horn and looks more like an old sheep (missing neutrons/gamma rays/reaction products)...and it is rarely in its pen where they claim it is (unreliable and unpredictable.)
     
  19. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    hmmm. just saw on NBC news a blurb about the Boeing Laser. scheduled for testing this fall. that was Monday i think... canceled already??

    oh well
     
  20. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

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    Haven't they been talking about that laser plane for 20 years or more? I remember images of it flying about long ago, didn't look like the present one.

    It was always one of the cooler programs imagination wise. Figured it wouldn't work though...pesky weather, rotating missles, and such could defeat it even if the targeting was excellent.