A man who makes Al Gore seem somewhat normal

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DocVijay @ Apr 18 2007, 05:32 PM) [snapback]425617[/snapback]</div>

there's no way you are a law student because you haven't the foggiest idea on how the law works around guns sales


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DocVijay @ Apr 18 2007, 05:32 PM) [snapback]425617[/snapback]</div>

there's no way you are a law student because you haven't the foggiest idea on how the law works around gun sales


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Apr 18 2007, 07:33 PM) [snapback]425683[/snapback]</div>

No it is you who failed,. 32 americans died and you don't give a damn

Blacksburg, VA – Paul Helmke, President of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, issued the following statement:

"Our thoughts and prayers go out to the families of the Virginia Tech University community, and to the families of the victims of what appears to be one of the worst mass shootings in American history.

"Details are still forthcoming about what motivated the shooter in this case to act, and how he was able to arm himself. It is well known, however, how easy it is for an individual to get powerful weapons in our country.

"Eight years ago this week, the young people in Littleton, Colorado suffered a horrible attack at Columbine High School, and almost exactly six months ago, five young people were killed at an Amish schoolhouse in Pennsylvania. Since these killings, we've done nothing as a country to end gun violence in our schools and communities. If anything, we've made it easier to access powerful weapons.

"We have now seen another horrible tragedy that will never be forgotten. It is long overdue for us to take some common-sense actions to prevent tragedies like this from continuing to occur."
# # #

As the nation's largest, non-partisan, grassroots organization leading the fight to prevent gun violence, the Brady Campaign, working with its dedicated network of Million Mom March Chapters, is devoted to creating an America free from gun violence, where all Americans are safe at home, at school, at work, and in our communities.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Apr 18 2007, 05:58 PM) [snapback]425633[/snapback]</div>

I think we meant credible scandals. Not made up ones.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DocVijay @ Apr 18 2007, 04:37 PM) [snapback]425659[/snapback]</div>

Doc, you are about three decades short of my legal education and day to day courtroom experience. I work in the criminal justice system. It is not just a matter of lectures, casebooks and Socratic discussions for me. I am quite familiar with the history of common law crime and punishment. Not all felonies were punishable by death by the time that the Second Amendment was adopted. Many felonies have nothing to do with force or violence.

For most people, the privilege of driving a car is far more important than the right to keep and bear arms. I have got some more news for you, in the overwhelming majority of the states it is illegal for mental patients to own or possess firearms.

Lastly, in December 2005 a judge deemed Cho Seung-Hui to be an imminent danger to others because of mental illness.

FoxNews.com

 

"Who cares about a haircut. I am more interested in that he doesn't invade the wrong country and gets thousands of americans killed either directly by war, or indirectly by refusing to fund stem cell research."

Edwards of course CO-SPONSORED the Iraq invasion authorization...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DocVijay @ Apr 18 2007, 04:28 PM) [snapback]425592[/snapback]</div>

You're talking to a brick wall of emotion and irrationality. You can't use logic or common sense with these people.

With that said, their excuse for not wanting students to be CHL is "oh but the crossfire.. the crossfire!"
They'd rather have a lone maniac gunman popping kids in the head one at a time than students with the capability of defending themselves w/ the possibility of friendly fire.

With that said, people can blame "lax gun laws" (lax, yeah right), which holds no validity what-so-ever.. I blame laws that strip citizens ability to defend themselves.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ari14850 @ Apr 18 2007, 09:03 PM) [snapback]425728[/snapback]</div>

So important you had to say it twice!

I read my post again, and I didn't see any place where I discussed how the law works around "guns sales". Maybe you should read it again and you'd see that too. Someone proposed making mental health part of the background check. That is all I discussed. Next time read thoroughly and make sure you understand what you are posting about.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Apr 18 2007, 11:10 PM) [snapback]425803[/snapback]</div>

First of all, of course you have more experience and knowledge than me. At least I certainly hope so! And you're right about the felonies and Second Amendment. However, it's not the Second Amendment that says anything about felons and their right to purchase firearms. That came later. As I said, the definition of a felony has changed.

Regardless of which a person considers more important, driving is still a privilege and owning a firearm is a right. It is easier to deny someone a privilege than to remove someones rights.

And yes, individual states have passed laws (and not very easily either) that makes people with particular mental conditions ineligible to purchase a firearm. However, that does not stop someone from traveling to another state to purchase one. That also does not stop anyone, crazy or not, from illegally acquiring a firearm.

The first question that must be answered is "was he diagnosed with a particular mental condition that would hav precluded him from purchasing a gun if Virginia had such a provision in the law?" I don't know. Chances are no one else here does either. For these laws to work, they must be very specific. Overly broad laws are the first to be thrown out as unconstituional. So unless we can be certain that a proper diagnosis had been made so that he would have affected by this type of law, it's really a moot point.

I've been following the story, so I am aware of all the "failures" of the system in Virginia. But whose fault is it really? Is it the school? Is it the police? Who should we blame? Well, first let's blame the shooter.

If you have been following this story, you should know that it is very apparent that this guy was less crazy than it seems and was simply an evil person. The way he methodically planned and acted is the scary part. The way he got his gun is almost trivial in big picture of this tragedy. This guy was hellbent on getting "revenge" against those he hated. I have this strange feeling that if his condition had been diagnosed and noted and Virginia had legislation in place that would have made his mental condition a block on purchasing a firearm, he still would have acquired one somehow. Short of imprisoning him, I don't see how this could have been stopped. However since he had committed no crime, that was not an option. He could have been Baker Acted (actually he was), but that is only for 72 hours.

This guy was evil. Listen to his words. Look at the photos. Look at his eyes. Craziness had less to do with this than hatred. Look at Columbine. Everyone tried to find something to blame. Turns out these guys wanted to "martyr" themselves and go down in history. Looks like their plan worked. Of course Cho Seung-Hui had issues. There's no way I could say otherwise. But what would reporting his mental condition have done.

How COULD we have stopped this guy? What actions COULD have been taken to prevent this? Anyone have a REASONABLE answer to that?

Tens of millions of people in this country have some form of mental illness. Tens of millions are being treated for it.

There is more at work here than just that. And until we figure out exactly what it is we will not be able to stop these horrible shootings.

England and Australia are both gun free countries. Or at least according to the laws written on the books they are. Yet there are still shootings in both countries. Why is that. Don't the people realize that they aren't allowed to have them? Gun control is not the solution. It's more like people control.

I was talking to some people yesterday about this, and I asked well what would have happened if VT was not a gun free zone, and a student or professor had been carrying a firearm. What if that person shot the assailant. The answer I got stunned me into silence. desynch posted it. The person said "Oh great, then we'd have bullets flying everywhere in the shootout."

WHAT?

So what exactly happened in Norris Hall. Bullets were flying everywhere, and 32 innocent people's lives were horribly and prematurely snuffed out.

Professor Liviu Librescu survived the god damn holocaust only to be killed by this guy! He heroically gave his life so that his students could live!

I believe, and no argument will make me feel otherwise, that if someone there had been carrying a firearm, many of the lives possibly would not have been lost.

It was just a year ago that VT instated the gun free policy so that students, staff, and visitors would feel safer. You can probably google the actual statement the president of VT made. The policy isn't really working.

Ban guns. Tighter gun control. Worthless suggestions.

We need people control. Society control. Why is that we live in a society where this happens. And it's not just here. It happens around the world. How has our society fallen so far that when these things happen, we are all saddened greatly, we aren't really shocked that it occurred. And they keep getting worse.

Blame guns. Blame video games. Blame the police. Blame the university. Blame anyone you can without actually looking at the problem. Our society has gone rotten from the inside, and we need to fix that.


--------------------------------------

Oh and as far as Rush Limbaugh's house is concerned, I fell the exact same way about it as I do about Edwards and Gore. HOWEVER, Rush makes no pretense about ending poverty and saving the environment as those other two do. Just a bit of hypocrisy in my opinion.

--------------------------------------

Whew! I'm exhausted. Need to rest.

 

Right on DocviJay... preach on.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ystasino @ Apr 19 2007, 01:26 AM) [snapback]425883[/snapback]</div>

Assuming this is true it was based on mis-information provided by the White House. I remember Cheney clearly saying "We have information not available to them".

Not that this is a complete excuse. They were not critical enough or did not have the political courage to oppose the White House. However, the origin of the misinformation and the push for invasion of the wrong country came from the White House only.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Apr 19 2007, 11:14 AM) [snapback]426048[/snapback]</div>

You can very much parallel this with the VT tragedy.

For both situations we are already in the middle of it. There is no going back in time.

Stop trying to find people to blame. That is NOT going to solve a damn thing. Figure out a solution that makes everyone happy, and I'll consider you a great person regardless of your opinions.

Come to think of it, that way of thinking could solve a great majority of this country's problems.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DocVijay @ Apr 19 2007, 12:37 PM) [snapback]426140[/snapback]</div>

Oh yeah. This is the republicans fault all the way because of their unabashed manipulation of the media, the american publican and issues themselves. They should be recognized as guilty of their actions so that the american public is not so easily deceived again.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Apr 18 2007, 07:17 PM) [snapback]425740[/snapback]</div>

Well you asked for more, so here it is!!!!!
By the way, most of the items on the Bush administration list are not"scandals". They are political decisions YOU disagree with and as such MUST be a scandal because how dare government make a decision you disagree with.

A is for Arkansas, where Bill Clinton got his political start, where Hillary Rodham Clinton worked at Rose Law Firm, and where Whitewater began as a land deal between the Clintons and Jim and Susan McDougal.

B is for Billing-gate, Hillary Clinton's missing law-billing records. Those records -- which raised questions about Mrs. Clinton's role in the Castle Grande deal -- were subpoenaed in 1994. They were missing until early 1996, when they turned up in a White House room next to her office. She says she doesn't know how they got there.

C is for Cattlegate, Hillary Clinton's mysterious ability to turn a $1,000 investment into a $100,000 profit on cattle futures, a feat experts say was virtually impossible in normal trading.

C is also for Castle Grande, a real-estate scheme that federal regulators say was a sham. A federal inspector general's report found Hillary Clinton drew up the legal papers that were used to improperly funnel hundreds of thousands of dollars to Seth Ward, father-in-law of her ex-law partner Webster Hubbell.

D is for Billy Dale, the career head of the White House Travel Office, who was fired along with six other career staffers, to make way for Clinton cronies in Travelgate. The White House then brought in the FBI to justify the firing, and Dale was hit with criminal charges that wrecked his life for two years. A jury cleared him in just two hours.

E is for Mike Espy, the former agriculture secretary who was forced out over charges that he got gifts and favors from Arkansas-based Tyson foods, whose owners were longtime Clinton backers. A special counsel has brought several indictments, though not against Espy.

F is for Filegate, the improper White House rummaging through 900 FBI files on Republican officials in the Bush and Reagan administration. The White House says it was an innocent snafu. Republicans suspect an enemies list. Whitewater independent counsel Ken Starr and several congressional committees are probing.

G is for Golfgate, ex-White House aide David Watkins' improper use of presidential helicopters for a personal golf outing. He was forced to resign. In the 1992 presidential campaign, Clinton aides tried to use taxpayer funds to help settle a sexual harassment case filed by a fellow campaign worker against Watkins.

H is for Hillary Clinton, whose role has been questioned in Filegate, Travelgate, Billing-gate, Whitewater and Castle Grande. She denies any wrongdoing.

H is also for Hubbell, in jail after pleading guilty to bilking law clients on charges brought by Whitewater independent counsel Starr. Hubbell was previously the associate attorney general, the No. 3 Justice Department office.

I is for Indonesiagate, featuring the Lippo group, a firm with long-standing ties to Bill Clinton, Clinton cronies and Arkansas. Republicans want to know why an Indonesian couple -- of apparently modest means -- with ties to Lippo gave $452,000 to the Democratic National Committee and what the firm may have gotten in return. Lippo also hired Hubbell, at a reported fee of $250,000, for the five months when he left the White House and went to jail.

J is for Paula Jones, who accuses President Clinton of sexual harassment, saying he dropped his pants and asked for oral sex in an Arkansas hotel room while he was governor and she was a state employee. The U.S. Supreme Court will rule this fall on whether her case must wait until after Clinton leaves office, as he demands.

K is for William Kennedy, another ex-Hillary Clinton law partner who became a White House lawyer and was forced to resign after concealing his failure to pay nanny taxes. He was reprimanded for his role in Travelgate.

L is for Craig Livingstone, the ex-bar bouncer with a history of drug use who was the head of White House security. Two FBI agents say it was Hillary Clinton who demanded his hiring, which she denies. Disgraced Clinton political guru Dick Morris's hooker pal, Sherry Rowlands, claims Morris told her a "paranoid" Hillary Clinton was behind Filegate. He says he only told her that's what polls show.

M is for Jim and Susan McDougal, the Clintons' Whitewater partners, both of whom have been convicted of fraud. Jim McDougal is said to be helping Whitewater independent counsel Starr. Susan McDougal is in jail for refusing to say whether President Clinton lied when he denied knowing about an illegal $300,000 loan to bail out Whitewater. The loan wasn't repaid, and taxpayers were left holding the bag.

M is also for disgraced political guru Dick Morris.

N is for Bernard Nussbaum, the former White House lawyer who barred federal investigators from searching Vince Foster's office after Foster's death. Nussbaum also withheld Foster's diary on Travelgate problems from federal probers for more than a year. Nussbaum was forced to resign for botching damage-control efforts.

O is for Energy Secretary Hazel O'Leary, the frequent flier who drew up an enemies list of reporters, hired an image consultant at taxpayer expense, and has run up huge tabs on overseas trips.

P is for Pardons, which President Clinton has refused to rule out for individuals like Susan McDougal who potentially could provide evidence against him.

P is also for White House Chief of Staff Leon Panetta, expected to leave in a second Clinton term -- with the prospect that his deputy, Harold Ickes, could replaces him. Senate Republicans want perjury charges brought against Ickes for his answers on Whitewater damage control.

Q is for all the questions -- unanswered -- on Whitewater, Filegate, Travelgate, Cattlegate and Billgate.

R is for Sherry Rowlands, the $200-an-hour hooker who revealed her ongoing affair with Clinton political guru Dick Morris, the author of Clinton's family-values strategy, forcing Morris to resign.

R is also for the Rose Law Firm, where Hillary Clinton, Vince Foster, Webster Hubbell and William Kennedy were partners, as was Joseph Giroir, a key figure in the Lippo group.

S is for Kenneth Starr, the Whitewater independent counsel probing Filegate, Travelgate and Vince Foster's death. He has won 15 convictions or guilty pleas, including both McDougals and former Arkansas Gov. Jim Guy Tucker, who was forced to resign. Starr says his probes are active and ongoing, and there is widespread speculation he will have more indictments after the election, possibly including one of Hillary Clinton.

T is for Travelgate, the Clintons' firing of career travel staffers like Billy Dale to make way for Clinton cronies. White House memos say Hillary Clinton was behind the firings -- she denies it -- and that she was spurred on by Clinton Hollywood pal Harry Thomason, who was seeking a piece of the lucrative White House charter business.

U is for undue influence and the question of whether that is what Lippo was seeking though megabucks contributions to Democrats. Lippo has close ties to Indonesia's brutal dictatorship, responsible for near-genocide in East Timor, which it occupied two decades ago.

V is for Vince Foster, the former Hillary Clinton law partner who became a White House lawyer and was found dead, an apparent suicide with a gunshot wound to the head. He apparently was a central figure in Travelgate and Filegate and handled Whitewater matters for the Clintons. Starr is examining his death and has yet to confirm former prober Bob Fiske's conclusion that it was a suicide in the park where Foster was found.

W is for Whitewater, the Arkansas land deal that started it all, with questions about whether the Clintons improperly benefitted from funds Jim McDougal's Madison Guarantee savings-and-loan, which went belly up, costing taxpayers an estimated $60 million.

X is for the Xeroxed copy of Hillary Clinton's law billing records that were found in the white House book room, two years after they were first sought. The pages had Mrs. Clinton's fingerprints around the section on Castle Grande - there were red ink notations in the late Vince Foster's handwriting.

Y is for the the young White House aides who were hired by the Clinton administration despite FBI background checks that found "recent" use of hard drugs like cocaine, crack and hallucinogens.

Z is for zippers -- the one Paula Jones claims that the then-Arkansas governor undid (see J) and the one Gennifer Flowers claims Clinton undid during what she insists was a long-running affair. He denies the claims.

from cite: http://www.io.com/~cjburke/clinton/clinatoz.html

 

YEs seriously.. those "Scandals" you claim Bush committed.. 99% of them weren't SCANDALS.. they were things you didn't like. Grow up!!


and I is for.. "I didn't INHALE".

 

How can you possibly argue any of those "scandals" you mention are even near in consequence to the mishandling of a war and the manipulation of national security intelligence? Not to mention many others.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DocVijay @ Apr 19 2007, 09:01 AM) [snapback]426037[/snapback]</div>

I am not licensed to practice law in Virginia and have never done any legal work there, so I do not know their laws. However, a Virginia Magistrate Court judge has found Cho Seung-Hui to be an imminent danger to others because of mental illness. Do you really believe that he should be permitted to keep and bear arms just like the average mentally healthy law abiding citizen? I don't. If Virginia does not have a legislative scheme regulating the ownership and possession of firearms by those who have been judicially determined to be dangerous to others, it should.

 

Everyone take a deeeeeeeeeeeep breath...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Apr 19 2007, 01:23 PM) [snapback]426163[/snapback]</div>

Well, I answered your question early in this thread. No, I don't think he should have been able to buy a gun.

I did a little checking on Virginia law (I'll miss the unlimited Lexis and Westlaw...), and a person can be prevented from buying a gun only if they are involuntarily committed to a mental health hospital or some similar institution.

In this case, Cho Seung-Hui was not, and the judge actually said that outside treatment was a viable option. So he was not barred from making the purchase.

That said, I think that even if he WAS ineligible to purchase a gun, he would have gotten one some other way.

But like I said, instead of blaming it on gun control laws in Virginia, let's try and figure out exactly why this kid had such evil and hatred inside him. What caused this to happen; how did it develop?

People are trying to blame so many things, and none can adequately explain it.

Some claim he was picked on as a child. Big deal, so was I. So were many others I'm sure. But somehow we were not turned into cold-blooded killers.

ANother source blames a violent movie by a South Korean director. Give me a break.



Anyway let's cut to the chase. Why did this kid end up the way he did? Answer that, and then we can try and fix this problem we have with school shootings.

Making stricter gun laws is merely a band-aid on a gaping wound. School shootings in countries with stricter gun laws, or (supposedly) no guns at all, have shown that this is not effective.

 

I agree with DocVijay. Banning guns and providing stringent regulation won't do anything to solve the underlying problem (especially in regards to mental illness).

I am clueless as to why liberals are so completely anti-gun and anti-2nd amendment... we'd be a lot more effective in politics if we narrowed our focus on what issues are most important rather than take up everything we feel is important... and not to mention that the logic on banning all guns is even completely solid (as was stated).

 

Take away the murders committed with firearms and WE STILL HAVE one of the highest murder rates, if not the highest.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Apr 19 2007, 02:07 PM) [snapback]426199[/snapback]</div>

I am at a loss as well. I consider myself liberal but enjoy target shooting with friends. One possible technology that might help reduce the number of accidental or criminal shootings is integrated combination gun-locks. The combination can be registered to individuals and if given to a second party could be traced back to the original owner. Guns could still be sold but the transaction would have to be registered for transfer of the gun and combination. At the moment of registration a background check could be made for the future owner.

BTW, the NRA vehemently opposes this and similar measures.