87 MPG(e): Toyota Confuddles PC experts

Yes - 110V gives about 4 miles of charge per hour. We should probably take this up in the Leaf thread or better in MNL - don't want to completely derail this thread.

In general I don't suggest Leaf for very long commutes, mainly because they will finish the 100k miles the battery is warranteed for within 2 or 3 years. After that what ?

BTW, cure for coal heavy states is to get home PV - if you have the financial means.

 

no matter how bad i want this car ,which is pretty bad,i cannot find a way to pay 32000.00 for the plugin,thats almost a 8000.00 premium put on the batteries to much for me,im sure that many other were just let down too, big dissapointment !!!

 

Unlike The Last Program on the Gen 3, We will get a price from our local dealer. Last time we got a GREAT Price directly from Toyota.

 

I agree the 32K and 39K prices are a bit much for 15 miles of fun?

Now I have to decade between an all electric Ford, Leaf or a Prius.
I also have to think about 7500.00 Tax Rebate VS 2500.00.:cheer2:

That's a Big 5000.00 difference. Could get a Volt for that difference and 40 miles of fun. . Hmmm Decisions Decisions.

 

The least expensive PHV will be cheaper than a Volt, the most expensive PHV will be more expensive than a Volt. Pricewise we're all in the same ballpark (with PHV winning the easier entry point).

The ratings description from the prius team said to compare the 87 mpge on the PHV to the 93 mpge on the Volt. What are you basing the less electricity on, other than the fact it will carry so much less electricity to use?

The 49 mpg after depletion changes some of our calcs earlier on gas comparisons as well,the trip will need to be longer for the PHV's higher CS mileage to make up the lead from the Volt's higher AER (more than 100 miles). Given most people's daily driving routines I think the average driver will burn less gas in the Volt.

Particularly since the number of people that the Volt will allow to go 100% gas free is larger than the number of people that would be able to achieve the same thing in the PHV.

 

Majority of the sales for the Prius PHV should be the standard trim since it is equipped with many functional options. The base Volt doesn't even come with a backup camera.

Yes. Plus mile per kWh should favor Prius PHV.

I think it will be very close. Even if they "tie", the midsize should win.

 

This isn't necessarily meant to imply that the PHV will do exactly the below (though it may try, to the best of its ability, given that it doesn't know the future), but here's an example of how this could happen: When you use the engine, it has to balance power output and efficiency. Many of us know this, and therefore try to do pulse and glide, keeping the engine at a particular spot on the HSI. But we don't always keep it right at that best spot. In a vehicle with more battery capacity, the car may be more willing to stop asking for extra engine output when it reaches peak efficiency, and get more battery output instead. The end result is that your engine runs in the most efficient range more often.

This is exactly how the Prius gets good efficiency to begin with, though the non-PHV works in the low-power range and not the high-power range. When you're requesting less power than the engine can efficiently provide, it leaves the engine off (or, if the engine is still warming up or the battery is low, it can have the engine run at a higher, more efficient speed and charge the battery as well). But the standard Prius, at least in my experience, doesn't usually do the same thing at the high-power end, if for no other reason than the battery would quickly be drained - the only exception being when the battery SoC is high.

Now that's not the only way that you can get 1 + 1 to equal 3, but it's hopefully a way that's easy to understand.

 

So the 87 mpge is for pure EV operation, not the combined number of EV and hybrid modes over a set distance?

Unless the Prius got real lucky with rounding to get 50 mpg, I expect the PHV one to do better than 49 mpg. So the mpge should likewise improve.

 

I think I agree with TrollB the 87 MPGe quote seems to refer to electrical EV mode MPG efficiency which, unexpectedly, is a little worse than Volt. I have said Volt is 35 MPG-fossil fuel equivalents in EV mode.

 

EV will be used for all the short trips where I only get 25-30mpg for the first 5 min

 

The way EPA calculated MPGe is by first getting the miles/kwh. This figure is a combination of urban & highway - and then a 30% fudge factor is applied. This is the reason Leaf gets a 73 mile range, for eg.

 

Sage- I take back my prior comments.
There is conflicting info on this thread and on other threads.

The problem is there is two MPGe definitons:
(a) MPGe EV (EV mode only) and
(b) MPGe Combined (EV+Gaso) - the dealer window sticker number

These two definitions are getting mixed up in the responses, I think.
The Prius Team was saying the 87 MPGe compares to 93 MPGe for Volt. But you are suggesting 87 MPGe compares to ~60 MPGe Volt (approx Volt window sticker combined MPG). We need to compare window sticker Prius PHV to window sticker Volt, is what we need to get down to.

 

Most likely, many frequent trips make up those miles. They are the MPG killers that a cordless Prius would get below 50 MPG.

 

From the announcement, 87 MPGe is the overall rating.

 

...correction? did you mean to say, best compared to 60 MPG combined for Volt (window sticker MPGe). Thus 87 combined MPGe for Prius would be very good by comparison, if it holds as the final number.

 

I'm not sure what confuddles even means, or who the experts are, but the 87 MPGe is for the blended EV miles. Toyota says that it will go approximately 15 miles and use this much energy. EPA uses 33.7kwh/gallon gassoline equivalance, looking only at energy content at the plug and pump. No refinery/generator/price comparison is included in the epa formula. The prius phv will use some gasoline and some electricity, and the increased range is likely the result of using a couple more drops of gasoline versus the demo cars. Toyota is tweeking the software so these numbers may change slightly. The mpge is quite similar, the big difference is 15/35/73 mile range for prius phv/volt/leaf. With the phv being the least efficient and leaf most efficient. Once electric miles are burned the prius is still champ.

 

I think the problem is the electric only number probably doesn't exist for the PHV. You're going to have a blended number for the first 15 miles for the gas and electric consumed, then the mpg number in CS mode (all gas). You're not going to see super high electric car numbers while mixing in petrol.

The sticker is likely to say "All electric miles = 0" see sample posted by usbseawolf