4th generation coming 2015!

The difference is my frig doesn't care how the electricity is made. The grid shifts to more renewable, so does my frig. Then I could pay extra for renewable, or install it at my home.

Hydrogen will be like gasoline though. The individual won't get much to any say in if it comes from a clean or dirty source. I can't boycott gas stations selling tar sands gas, and neither will I be able to boycott the hydrogen stations selling natural gas hydrogen. Like the actual price of hydrogen in California, this info is hidden from the end consumer. You simply can't choose green gasoline, and you won't be able to choose green hydrogen.

I wonder what California's grid mix would look like if the renewable electricity used to make hydrogen went to the grid?

 

Far exceeds? The retail customer renewable mix in California is already 23-25% and will be 33% in 2020 and that doesn't count large hydro generation which is another 10-15% in an average year.

 

It can, but I bet it isn't.

If I could buy a Mirai tomorrow, where would I fill it? Let's assume there actually was somewhere within 200 miles of me, and then let's guess who would own it? My money would be on Shell, Texaco, Esso, etc, and very unlikely to be Greenpeace.

 

The sure bet would be on the government actually paying to run it. The oil companies actually don't want take the risk themselves, and neither do the car companies making them.

 

An AWD Prius would be a fantastic differentiator against clean diesels especially in Europe where Hybrids are not very popular.

 

even at 50,000 pounds?

 

I disagree. Plug In hybrid sales are up 1000% this year.

Alternatively fueled vehicles (hybrid, EV, PHEV etc) are still about 2% of the total market share (compared to 1.4% in 2013) but that compares with the US - I think.

Electric car sales accelerate into 2015 - 09 Feb 2015 - News from BusinessGreen

Electric car sales quadruple during 2014 - 08 Jan 2015 - Analysis from BusinessGreen

People are slowly realising that diesel cars with dpf's are now an expensive nightmare for low mileage users and the extra cost of diesel (and higher tax rates) are starting to make people think. But habits are hard to get into and harder to break. The UK Government now has it in for diesel cars due to the pollution issues they're causing - just look at London the other week.

 

There is no reason why you cannot buy SREC for H2 generated generated from renewable source, no matter where you are, again just like electricity.

Which is why it is important for the government to build the infrastructure. Did it matter national grid was funded by coal companies?

I encourage critical thinking. I am getting solar panels on my roof for free after the incentives. That won't cloud my judgement or become EV bias. Critical thinking is the key.

Gen4 Prius can be as clean as EVs with half it's range.

 

Gen4 Prius can be as clean s EVs in terms of GHGs for 40% of the population.

You were very outspoken about EVs being not ready for general release back when they were only cleaner than the Prius for 40% of the population. Now you are promoting the 4th gen Prius even though it is cleaner for only 40%??

 

Both are good choices. I promote both where they make sense. Better than regular combustion cars.

Remember, my comments are intended to balance the views.

When EVs are promoted ($7,500) in dirty grid states, I speak out against it.

 

I agree with your view that people are slowly realising the downside to Diesels but up here in Scotland, Hybrids are not that popular. During my home to work drive on weekdays, on a lucky day I would see two hybrid cars, 99.99% would be conventional other types. Possible reasons might be:

1. There are Diesel alternatives half the price and comparable size and performance
2. Average person cares a lot about interior fit and finish, e.g. dashboard rattle is a no-no and roads are rough here
3. Out of town motorway driving at motorway speed suits diesels more, benefit of a hybrid is not clear
4. Too many wanna-be boy racers among average folk here, hence why VW/Audis are so popular

However if Gen4 comes with an AWD option, that will make people reconsider a Hybrid. Especially as there is a growing trend towards CUV or compact 4x4 SUVs which are known to be safer in cold and wet weather which is the case 8-10 months every year.

 

Once again though, EVs are better than "regular combustion cars" everywhere in the U.S.

 

Yes, agreed. Does it deserve $7,500 incentive when a Prius is cleaner than an EV, for the 40% of the population? For the remaining 60%, EV is somewhat cleaner than Prius so partial incentive? Why aren't other clean technologies getting similar incentives?

I believe the plugin incentives need to tie to the emission and efficiency over a comparable combustion cars. There is a huge loophole that nobody is talking about.

For example, the expired hybrid incentives took account of the MPG improvement over a regular comparing car. Prius qualified the highest because it was the most efficient.

 

maybe the incentives should be going to the power companies to build renewables.

 

I started an incentive thread in the politics section for this discussion, because that is where it will lead too.

That presumes there is hydrogen made from a renewable source to begin with, and that it falls within SREC regulations and accounting. Then what if the renewable source is biomass, which can also be converted into a syncrude and then refined into gasoline?

Do you just buy enough SRECs to cover the electrolysis, compression, and maybe transportation of the hydrogen you use, and say you did good? Do you do good if your region has no renewable hydrogen? Will California subtract from their renewable portion to give you credit in the case there is no renewable where you live? Are their renewable hydrogen facilities even certified for SRECs?

Gasoline could be made renewable. Shouldn't you be able to just buy SRECs and call the gas you burn renewable?

Electricity is flowing electrons, which are literally in everything. The vast majority of it is made by converting kinetic energy, and we have multiple ways of making that kinetic energy or harvesting it. Hydrogen is an element. In order to make it for a fuel, you have to start with compounds that contain it. A GW of PV can't make you hydrogen if you don't have any hydrogen containing material to begin with.

Hydrogen is not like electricity. It could be used to store energy to later be used to make electricity, but itself is chemical energy. Just like batteries. Capacitors are the only thing I know that could be said to store electricity directly. Every other electric storage methods requires it to be converted to another energy.

So hydrogen isn't electricity, and any accounting scheme used to give credit for renewable electric use does not apply to it.

 

...And France is taking measures as well.
These are good news which may give Hybrids and plug-ins an extra push in Europe.

 

+1

This way, all the home (not only cars that charge off it) and basically everything that uses electricity will be cleaner.

Then you'll have renewable gasoline. A regular Prius can run on renewable fuel. You don't need an EV, PHEV or FCV.

I doubt you'll see it as there are many steps to get to "bio-gasoline" and then combustion engine is only ~40% efficient - it would be a waste and a bad path from well to wheel.

SREC will work the same way as electricity. You have a production meter that will track the number of SREC generated.

Hydrogen and FCV have unique set of advantages from BEV and also from HEV (like Prius). It refuels as quick as gas Prius with similar driving range, yet there is no combustion engine complexity or maintenance like BEV. It has the best of both worlds, without the bad parts (no slow charging, heavy space hogging battery, etc).

 

absolute. it's important to clean up the grid, with or without plug ins. doesn't mean we can't do both at the same time, but there's very little political will or public support. most want cheap electricity, period.

 

I think the grid should be cleaned up before rolling out the plugins.

Once the grid is as clean as Gen4 Prius (moving target), then plugins can be justified with the incentives. Unless, you can engineer a plugin that's cleaner than a standard Prius. There is one and that is the PiP. It only runs on electricity for short trips and lower speed and acceleration power. But that is all what's good for at the current grid cleanliness.

 

Well, almost everywhere. But not in areas where the grid is dirtier than about 700 g/kWh CO2e (upstream included).