4th generation coming 2015!

Did you answer "Earth"?

 

Ok tideland, so you've dealt with toyota directly testing a brand new tech. How much faith so you have in them? Funny at that time they tested the phv in the us whereas supposed in early 2014 they started testing wireless charging. remembering correctly the test fleet was about late 2010 to early 2011 and the final production version was 2012

Granted this says nothing about timing of release..

 

I have heard several manufacturers reps. say (paraphrasing) "the EV function is not intended for use in Canada or other cold countries". Both Toyota and Nissan. You can't even BUY a Tesla here. And not because there are no dealers. They won't sell one to us. Not really a problem though, because in most provinces in Canada you can't register a Tesla or any other EV. I -think- the Leaf is the only one currently approved. Though I haven't been "keeping up" with the regs.

As far as Toyota and the Prius, they do their "winter" testing up here. I've seen video of a Prius, covered in frost, being "tested". This year perhaps they'd be better to test in the Northeast US! I pity all of you down there! We've had a very mild winter (most of the time) this year. As I recall, it got to -30C only once.

In past years a few weeks at -40C (or F) was the norm. One day I walked to work (a practice I adopted as soon as I moved here from the wet coast) in -50C temps. It was very interesting. Quiet. Except for the occasional loud "CRACK", as the ground was protesting. I had -all- my winter clothing on, and was worried that if I fell, I wouldn't be able to get up.

 

This news will surprise members of the Tesla Canadian owners clubs, new owners picking up their cars at Tesla's store in Toronto or their two other locations or people stopping to Supercharge in Red Deer, Alberta halfway between Edmonton and Calgary (shown below).



Also:
Tesla Model S is like a rocket to the future - The Globe and Mail

 

I am surprised that there has not been more comments about the article in Automotive News entitled "Toyota's Massive Engine Overhaul," that was cited on the last page. Personally, I found more encouraging details in that article than all the talk combined about PiP's and EV. Combine that news with the earlier article about BSAF doubling the output of the old tried and proven reliable battery, there may be no need to venture off into PiP's, hydrogen, and exotic battery chemistry. Comment?

 

Unfortunately, there are basically THREE paths "forward":

1. Progressing UPWARD.
2. Same-old, same-old, TRIED & TRUE.
3. Regressing DOWNWARD.

Which of those do you think Toyota follows?

 

Yup, as I said, I haven't checked in a "while". When I did a few years ago they weren't offered in Canada.
So IF I ponied up for one for $80,000 to $120,000 the only route I could drive is down to Vancouver via Red Deer and hwy 1 to the coast. I couldn't go east in Canada.
They don't mention how much is charged to charge.
They do claim "savings" on gasoline, but not if they are costing the electricity and quoting the difference (good luck with that with costs varying from day to day for gasoline).
They don't quote mileage claims at, say, -10C.

I don't think so. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid! A Prius costs between $26,500 and $34,550 (mandatory block heater included at over $250).
I wonder how far I could drive on the difference - $55,000 to $86,000 (approx).

They do look neat though. Which is why I was looking at them a few years ago. When I was a bit younger and more stupid.

 

What we need to get rid of is the ICE. Really it's over 100 years old. We still drive cars with explosions in cylinders, pushing pistons with rings rubbing the walls, crankshafts, gears, valves. It's a mess. The industry has done wonderful things with the ICE but it's time to retire them. Compare that with the simplicity of electric motors and there is just no contest. The solution then depends on how you generate electricity to drive the motors.

Batteries are a bad solution, but the best we have at the moment. You can make them twice as good, or 10x better but they still take more power to charge them than they deliver. Batteries begin to deteriorate as soon as they are activated. They have a finite lifetime that is well within the overall lifetime of automobiles. In other words the battery will usually not outlast the car. The Prius is doing a pretty good job of making my last sentence not true, but we're not talking about an EV.

The solution is hydrogen fuel cells. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. Oh sure there are some pretty big hurdles to overcome but the world has overcome similar big hurdles in the past. Electricity generation and distribution is hugely expensive but most of the developed world has electricity sent to homes and factories. Petroleum production is hugely expensive and the delivery systems to bring it into our neighborhoods requires a massive infrastructure. But it has been done. So we will overcome the barriers to hydrogen availability. There will be a point when we will consider buying a fuel cell car because the price has dropped into a reasonable level, and there is enough availability of hydrogen to give it a shot. Little by little gas will be replaced with hydrogen. Sometime in the future those who still have an ICE car will find it a bit difficult to find gas. The end point is a long way off but I'm thinking this is all going to happen much faster than you think.

If you stick with the battery as the future perhaps a battery swap station would be a potential solution. All cars would have the same battery and an easy method of extracting it and shoving in a fully charged battery. Five minutes and you'd be off for another 300-500 miles. Cool. You pay for the difference between the power remaining in your depleted battery and the recharged one. You also pay some kind of fee based on the age of the battery you are turning in. This all eliminates the range anxiety. Just between you and me I think the Hydrogen solution beats this one though.

I'd guess the point at which the average person (in California) feels comfortable with a fuel cell car is perhaps 15 years off. In the mean time batteries will have to fill the gap.

 

You are right that the only thing we need is to generate electricity, but you are wrong on the hydrogen.
1. hydrogen production is energy consuming (Price)
2. hydrogen is not easy to store (fuel escapes form tanks)
3. hydrogen is not easy to fuel (price of gas stations)

IMO, Fuel cell is the future but fuel will not be pure hydrogen but some other synthetic fuel.

 

jdonalds - You almost convinced me. But not quite.

As you say, the traditional internal combustion engine has been around for 100 years. And, I would add, it has served us well. Many have tried, (steam, turbine, solar, and battery) and to date, none have been able to come up with a better solution at a reasonable cost. There are , however, now other design options to the ICE you described. For example, the rotary, or the linear design detailed just a page or two back. The latter appears to be a dedicated electricity producing device; simple in design, and do-able in the not too distant future.

Perhaps 10 pages back, mention was made of a small rotary-like device the size of a grapefruit. It could be a range extender. Mated only to a generator; and small enough to not occupy the entire front of a vehicle.

Personally, I have never been too interested in a PiP ...... the limitations just are not comparable with my needs. In addition, I am wary of lithium batteries. I am no engineer, but several recent articles have caught my interest: Engineers are finding ways to significantly improve the NiMH battery chemistry like used in the current Prius; or a small on-board device that generates electricity to maintain battery charge; and induction charging.

I like the idea of standardized components. I have always thought there should only be 4-5 windshield wiper blade sizes, or batteries, or brake pads, as well as many other small components ...... having gone to the auto shop and been confronted with countless sizes of each, many variations occurring even within one manufacturer. Isn't a degree of standardization what Toyota is endeavoring to do with the global architecture? At least within Toyota. But exchanging depleted batteries for charged ones every 300-500 miles reminds me of swopping the BBQ propane tank at Walmart. No thanks. I have to believe a better solution is internal changing on the fly utilizing one or more of the components I just mentioned, or others not mentioned.

BTW, manufacturers are not interested in standardization .... consider this years computer , or smart phone charging cord will not work on next years model.

 

Then there's the gray area...Do things the Android way - usb 2.0 compatible (all models currently area) - MicroSD, not all models, etc, etc...

There is not one way or the other. Li-Ions are not created equal but are underlying the same, how's that for a hoot. Also, Li-Ion tech has been around for a long time on a smaller scale. With tesla invested in it and basically every auto manufacturer, we will get good test results real soon regarding its longevity especially compared to NiMH which only Toyota uses now...and I think they might use it next gen too.

 

What does/will the revived Honda hybrid be using?

 

So is any other energy carrier.

Hydrogen is hard to store, but not for that reason.

That's mostly untrue, but largely irrelevant even if it were true.

You think a synthetic fuel will be cheaper to produce? Most synthetics start with hydrogen and carbon monoxide (see Syngas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). If you synthesize them as well, you have to create hydrogen, carbon monoxide, and then use them in a synthesis process to produce your fuel.

I still think the way to go is a PHV with an electric range in the neighborhood of 40 miles combined with a hydrogen fuel cell range extender (auxiliary power unit). You'll only use the hydrogen on long trips or in emergencies, totaling less than a third of your total mileage (you'll customize the electric range to suit your personal driving situation).

 

Again, hydrogen seems like a simple solution, but it's not, in the end we will get more complex fuel that is easier to distribute, has higher efficieny, etc.

One such solution could be Flow battery with electrolyte change for long journeys.

 

It's now just a..."Matter of Time"

[image deleted].

 

^Your image is broke.

And heck no, batteries over hydrogen 1000 times. Batteries are recyclable, nitrogen just vaporizes. You're just replacing one fossil fuel with another that is even more volatile and that requires, wait for it, other earth-sourced fuels to catalyze. Its abundance in the universe is of little consequence if it can't be captured (and transported) safely and economically.

 

All that "free" hydrogen (not nitrogen) floating around out there in space does absolutely NO good for your vehicle sitting here on Earth.

 

Just something else for the EPA to regulate.

 

So, erm, any sign of the next generation Prius? Lol