4th generation coming 2015!

Tideland Prius · Feb 24, 2015

john1701a said: ↑

Toyota chose to focus on need instead, placing a very high-priority on cost-containment. They didn't want to compromise on seating or cargo space either. The result was a configuration capable of actually taking on the true competition: traditional vehicles. MPG is boosted significantly over the regular hybrid, regardless of how far you drive, without the need for a massive battery-pack.

It's too bad so much emphasis on EV range has made that effort by Toyota so difficult to see.
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Give this man a prize.

Toyota's goal is to reduce the cost so that the "premium" the customer pay is as little as "possible" (in quotes because Toyota still wants to make a profit).

It is a pity that there's so much emphasis on EV range that total efficient is neglected.

I get the high of driving in EV. I want my next car to be a PHV with good range but I'm pragmatic enough to know that an efficient engine and a large battery cost money. The bigger the battery and more efficient the motor, the less money there is to spend elsewhere (like an advanced ICE). So you either take BMW's route and go all the way down to a tiny engine and tiny gas tank or you lose efficiency and take GM's path (though credit where credit is due, the Volt 2.0 is impressive).

Because the Prius PHV is based on a Prius, it already has the inherent cost of a Prius, compared to a dedicated platform like the Volt.

The Prius PHV vs. Volt is like the Prius vs. Civic Hybrid all over again. The dedicated platform is more flexible for the manufacturer because it's not tied down. (Civic Hybrid tied to the Civic, Prius PHV tied to the Prius).

The only way Toyota can effectively compete with the Volt is if the Prius PHV is a completely different vehicle - different exterior design, interior design, specifications and so forth (ok not completely different but more than what it is now)

cyclopathic · Feb 24, 2015

It is interesting to see how Gen4 discussion sways off the subject into side discussions.. yes Plug-in and EV range is important.

So is the ICE, and its thermal efficiency. A few /not really new/ news on ICE:
Toyota's massive engine overhaul

uly 14, 2014 - 12:01 am ET

TOYOTA CITY, Japan -- Toyota Motor Corp., after long neglecting the humble internal combustion engine in favor of hybrids, is preparing a sweeping powertrain makeover.

The automaker is designing common parts to spread costs across large numbers of engines.

This will allow it to economically customize engines for specific vehicles with fuel injection, turbocharging and more.
..................
Toyota is seeking fuel economy increases of up to 30 percent and cost cuts on key components of up to 50 percent.

The strategy underscores how Toyota is playing catch-up in a fundamental field, as rivals gain on the automaker's top fleet average fuel economy in the United States with big advancements in such fuel-saving technologies as direct injection, turbocharging and stop-start systems.

For years, Toyota has focused on its best-selling gasoline-electric hybrid systems. It hasn't abandoned that track.

But flush with record profits, the world's biggest automaker is channeling big investments in making its base engines more competitive.

Its gambit: The more money it can save through common parts, the more it can spend on such add-ons as turbochargers, which Toyota engineers internally refer to as kanzashi, the traditional ornamental hairpins worn by geisha.

For mainstay nameplates such as the Camry sedan, it could mean dumping a V-6 engine option and turning to downsized turbocharged four-cylinder engines.

"We would like to achieve No. 1 performance in fuel economy and cost for all the engines that we will be developing," Saga said in a Monday, July 7, interview at the company's global headquarters.

"We are spending more time concentrating on improving the basic performance of engines," he said. "That means we can maintain leadership in the market for a long time."
Toward 10 million

The new engines will be the cornerstone of Toyota's overhauled product development strategy. The approach, dubbed Toyota New Global Architecture, or TNGA, aims to maximize common parts in a new era in which its annual sales exceed a massive 10 million units.

Toyota's makeover comes as rivals such as Honda Motor Co. and Mazda Motor Corp. overhaul their engine lineups to meet increasingly stringent fuel economy regulations. Honda's line of Earth Dreams engines taps direct injection technology and turbocharging. Mazda's Skyactiv engines pair fuel injection with high compression ratios.

Toyota's first TNGA cars, complete with new platforms, are due in 2015.

But the first of the fresh engines debuted in April in the Toyota Passo, a Japan-market hatchback. That 1.0-liter powerplant, equipped with stop-start technology, delivers 30 percent better fuel economy than the outgoing engine.

It is one of 14 engines to be introduced through next year, covering 30 percent of Toyota's global nameplates.

Other nameplates in line for the new engines: the next-generation Prius hybrid, due at the end of 2015, and the next-generation Camry, which could arrive around 2016.

The goal is to cut costs and maximize performance by standardizing the basics: bore, stroke, combustion cycle, valve timing and components such as engine blocks, cylinder heads, cam-shafts and crankshafts. After that is where the hair ornaments come in.

"First, we have to improve the performance of the base engine itself, then on top of that we will be utilizing kanzashi as occasion demands," Saga said.

"Just like putting something beautiful on top of your hairdo, by using kanzashi through such things as turbocharging or downsizing, you can improve the performance of the engine."

Kanzashi add-ons may include direct fuel injection, exhaust gas recirculation systems or stop-start technologies that turn off the engine when the vehicle stops.

"We have a wide variety of kanzashi," Saga said.

The usual downside of kanzashi is added cost. But Toyota aims to rein in cost by standardizing the base engines, thereby freeing funds to invest in customized tweaks. After the overhaul, the number of engine families should remain the same at seven. But the number of variants will be greatly reduced, Saga said.

By simplifying the lineup, Toyota expects to generate two to three times the cost savings over previous engine overhauls. The cost of some components will fall by half, he said.

"Traditionally, when you add new kanzashi, that increases cost, and we struggled to absorb it and profit margin deteriorated," Saga said. "But by improving our design and bundling volume, in some cases we were are able to reduce costs by half."

The first wave of engines is being manufactured on existing engine lines. But future engines, including those for the next-generation Camry, will get retooled engine lines.

The engine architecture will underpin Toyota's lineup for 10 to 15 years, Saga said.

The EPA's annual report on fuel economy trends, which calculates automakers' fleet average fuel economy based on sales, shows Toyota losing ground to rivals such as Nissan and Mazda. For example, in 2010, Toyota's U.S. fleet average fuel economy was 25.4 mpg. In 2013, it was 25.2 mpg.

Meanwhile, Mazda improved from 24.4 mpg in 2010 to 27.5 mpg in 2013, and Nissan rose from 23.3 mpg to 24.6 mpg during the period.
Turbo Camry

The next Camry will be the first vehicle getting Toyota's full TNGA treatment, complete with a new platform and an engine built on a TNGA-tailored line. Other TNGA cars arriving before then, including the Prius, will get TNGA engines made on existing lines.

One possible "hair accessory" for the Camry: Toyota is considering a downsized inline-four turbo as an alternative to the V-6, Saga said.

"It might be able to replace a six-cylinder with a four-cylinder plus turbo plus direct injection," he said. "Compared to a V-6, we think this solution will be less costly."

But marketers are evaluating whether Americans will accept the idea.

"Eventually we think this is where the technology is going, but right now we don't know what the reaction of U.S. customers will be," he said. "So probably right up until the last moment, we will have to be ready with both and watch customer feedback."

Toyota's caution comes as rivals plunge into downsized turbocharging, especially Ford Motor Co. with its EcoBoost line of small, fuel-efficient turbocharged engines.

The engines are the first developed at Toyota's new Powertrain Joint Development Building, a massive 12-story r&d center that opened last year at Toyota's global headquarters. Saga is the center's vice president.

For the base engines, Toyota takes a multipronged approach to better fuel economy:

• Lean-burning Atkinson cycle combustion in regular cars, not only hybrids.

• New intake ports create a vertical air-fuel swirl for more rapid combustion.

• Expanded variable valve timing improves combustion efficiency.

• A high compression ratio improves power and efficiency.

The deployment strategy marks the first time Toyota will put an Atkinson cycle engine in a vehicle that isn't a gasoline-electric one.
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does this mean that new Prius will finally have DI?

cyclopathic · Feb 24, 2015

Passo press release:
Toyota launches new Passo hatchback in Japan [w/video]

Redesigned 'Passo' Compact Hatchback Launched in Japan

Toyota City, Japan, April 14, 2014―Toyota Motor Corporation today launched the partially redesigned "Passo" compact hatchback in Japan1. The redesigned vehicle achieves fuel efficiency of 27.6 km/L2, the best for registered gasoline vehicles in Japan3.

The Passo's fuel efficiency of 27.6 km/L represents an improvement of approximately 30 percent over the previous design and exceeds the fuel efficiency standards for 2015 set by the Japanese Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (MLIT) by 20 percent. Additionally, with CO2 emissions of 84 g/km, the Passo now achieves emissions levels 75 percent lower than the 2005 standards established under MLIT's Approval System for Low-Emission Vehicles, making it eligible for full tax reductions under the Japanese government's tax incentive program. Thanks to their improved fuel efficiency, the four-wheel drive models are also eligible for tax reductions.

The Passo uses a newly-developed, more efficient 1.0-liter engine with a maximum thermal efficiency of 37 percent. This superior level of thermal efficiency was achieved by raising the engine's compression ratio, optimizing valve timing, lowering friction, and using cooled exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) and an integrated exhaust manifold and cylinder head. In addition to improved aerodynamic performance and an enhanced regeneration system (which turns the energy of deceleration into stored battery power), the 1.0-liter two-wheel drive models5 also feature the Toyota Stop & Start System (which cuts off the engine at approximately 9 km/h when slowing to a stop) as standard.
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cyclopathic · Feb 24, 2015

this probably deserves separate thread:
Toyota develops high-efficiency ‘free piston’ no-crankshaft combustion engine… to power an EV | ExtremeTech

Toyota develops high-efficiency ‘free piston’ no-crankshaft combustion engine… to power an EV

By John Hewitt on July 7, 2014 at 12:09 pm
Comment

Toyota's free piston engine generator (FPEG)
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There is probably no better chronicler into the full depth of American ingenuity than YouTube. Here one finds not just computer models for all manner of esoteric combustion engine designs, but actual working prototypes of them, often built by individuals. Big companies can also innovate here sometimes. A new free piston engine linear generator (FPEG) from Toyota Central in Maine is a case in point.

The piston is called “free” because there is no crankshaft. On its power stroke, the piston dumps its kinetic energy into the fixed windings which surround it, generating a shot of three-phase AC electricity. It can be run sparkless through a diesel cycle or run on standard gasoline. What has folks excited is the claimed thermal efficiency for the device — at 42% it blows away the engines used in cars today. Toyota’s demo engine, just 8 inches around and 2 feet long, was able to generate 15 hp. A two-cylinder model would be self-balancing and have much reduced vibration.
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Something like this (2cyl 30hp) would be a good range extender for series hybrid/EV. Just take fuel cell of Mirai, increase battery pack, stick one of these and you have it

cycledrum · Feb 24, 2015

SAronian said: ↑

I thought this Toyota infographic made the PHV concept easy to understand. It should have been a large poster inside every showroom.

View attachment 75769
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Use as EV when commuting to work (PiP)? Not when I get on the freeway which is everyday driving to work.

cycledrum · Feb 24, 2015

inferno said: ↑

SAronian said: ↑

I thought this Toyota infographic made the PHV concept easy to understand. It should have been a large poster inside every showroom.

View attachment 75769
Click to expand...

This should have been marketed more. + add to the fact driving to the kids, local movie theaters, then grocery shopping. Honestly, the next PiP should have 20 miles and then 60 mpg+ I'll be happy And ditch my old PiP for it 20 Miles Ev only 4 KWH battery please Then we're talking about the EV race on a whole new level.

People are forgetting EVs cost money too, and only recently do we see less (or negative benefit) to charging versus fueling up. If Toyota can push more EV miles out of a smaller battery, they'll be light miles ahead of Tesla + Volt. Because imagine 4 times that range to get 80 EV miles, then have a 6 gallon take to get an additional 480 or so miles. It would crush everybody . At a fraction of production cost (+ charge cost) I'll dream on though... lol.

Doesn't the Volt have 8 gallons of gas it can utilize or something?
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The PiP has been out for nearly 3 years. I called Piercey Toyota parts for the second time yesterday and asked, what is the retail price for the Li Ion traction battery? The answer - $10,000. The same answer I was told a year ago. $10,000 with core credit. How much are people planning to spend to replace their traction battery?
The service advisor told me she replaced her GenI battery and the job was about $3,200, replaced at 218,000 miles.

What is the range degradation on a PiP traction battery? How many EV miles will it be providing after 8 or 10 years? If one plans to replace the LiIon, how much do they expect to pay or will they just deal with it when the time comes? Will these PiPs have much resale value when car is 10 years old?
All these questions could be asked about Volt, other plug ins. Maybe these very expensive batteries will last a very long time (15 years, 200k+ miles) I don't know.

cycledrum · Feb 24, 2015

Felt said: ↑

I'd request that we get back on topic ........... but since there is nothing to talk about pursuant to the thread topic, I suppose RV's and PiP's are as interesting as anything. Did anyone read the article about doubling the output of the battery chemistry that the Prius uses, with the potential of increasing 10 fold? The article discussed, in part, all the negatives about the Lithium battery.

I see where Honda's CEO stepped down because of the airbag fiasco. I can't see where that was his problem??? Perhaps Toyota's CEO should follow .... I think the "roll-out" of the G4 rivals the roll-out of Obamacare, and he seems to be more at fault. LOL.
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I don't think the Toyota CEO should step down. Word is he's had the vision of making more attractive cars (i.e. tasteful materials in the '15 Camrys, unlike uber boring and dorky materials in the 2014.5- Camrys. Now they need to work on fit inside the cabin).

inferno · Feb 24, 2015

cycledrum said: ↑

inferno said: ↑

SAronian said: ↑

I thought this Toyota infographic made the PHV concept easy to understand. It should have been a large poster inside every showroom.

View attachment 75769
Click to expand...

This should have been marketed more. + add to the fact driving to the kids, local movie theaters, then grocery shopping. Honestly, the next PiP should have 20 miles and then 60 mpg+ I'll be happy And ditch my old PiP for it 20 Miles Ev only 4 KWH battery please Then we're talking about the EV race on a whole new level.

People are forgetting EVs cost money too, and only recently do we see less (or negative benefit) to charging versus fueling up. If Toyota can push more EV miles out of a smaller battery, they'll be light miles ahead of Tesla + Volt. Because imagine 4 times that range to get 80 EV miles, then have a 6 gallon take to get an additional 480 or so miles. It would crush everybody . At a fraction of production cost (+ charge cost) I'll dream on though... lol.

Doesn't the Volt have 8 gallons of gas it can utilize or something?
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The PiP has been out for nearly 3 years. I called Piercey Toyota parts for the second time yesterday and asked, what is the retail price for the Li Ion traction battery? The answer - $10,000. The same answer I was told a year ago. $10,000 with core credit. How much are people planning to spend to replace their traction battery?
The service advisor told me she replaced her GenI battery and the job was about $3,200, replaced at 218,000 miles.

What is the range degradation on a PiP traction battery? How many EV miles will it be providing after 8 or 10 years? If one plans to replace the LiIon, how much do they expect to pay or will they just deal with it when the time comes? Will these PiPs have much resale value when car is 10 years old?
All these questions could be asked about Volt, other plug ins. Maybe these very expensive batteries will last a very long time (15 years, 200k+ miles) I don't know.
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Well I for one benefited in a used PiP which was $19k 2012 bought in 2014. I'll get no credits of course, but it was $4k less or so than a new low-end Prius package and about $11k+ lower than when it was new. So there is a resale value for sure, but not as much as people would hope. I guess I could have gotten a $19k 2013 mid-package Prius (which I saw as a possibility)...

However, right now I have 9.8 miles EV in the winter. It started off at 11 and went down. I of course expect it to go right back up in the spring, and btw, this February had been nasty.

According to my spreadsheets. We drive the PiP (wife and I) at an average of 45 mpg in hybrid mode. We also both drive (but much less) a Prius 2010, and it's getting 38 mpg. I am certain that the PiP has more mpgs but also can 'cheat' mpgs if it has a full battery. So it's already becoming and interesting test...

Zythryn · Feb 24, 2015

cycledrum said: ↑

The PiP has been out for nearly 3 years. I called Piercey Toyota parts for the second time yesterday and asked, what is the retail price for the Li Ion traction battery? The answer - $10,000. The same answer I was told a year ago. $10,000 with core credit. How much are people planning to spend to replace their traction battery?
The service advisor told me she replaced her GenI battery and the job was about $3,200, replaced at 218,000 miles.

What is the range degradation on a PiP traction battery? How many EV miles will it be providing after 8 or 10 years? If one plans to replace the LiIon, how much do they expect to pay or will they just deal with it when the time comes? Will these PiPs have much resale value when car is 10 years old?
All these questions could be asked about Volt, other plug ins. Maybe these very expensive batteries will last a very long time (15 years, 200k+ miles) I don't know.
Click to expand...

That must be a mistake. I would check with another dealer.
As for how long it will last, Toyota treats the batteries very kindly, not allowing it to get close to 0% or too full, so I would expect the battery to last at least 10 if not 15 years.

I don't know the specifics of the batteries Toyota uses, however, it is pretty easy in a PHEV to treat the batteries very kindly.

The battery pack for the Leaf is $6500. Considering the much larger size I can't see how Toyota gets away with $10,000 unless it is simply another manufactured reason for them to dismiss electric vehicles.

john1701a · Feb 24, 2015

Zythryn said: ↑

The battery pack for the Leaf is $6500. Considering the much larger size I can't see how Toyota gets away with $10,000 unless it is simply another manufactured reason for them to dismiss electric vehicles.
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MSRP = Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price

Who actually ever pays that much? Back when I worked retail, that value was an absurd thing to even bother referencing. Yet, our signs always included it next to the actual price.

Let's try to be realistic. No one is going to have to deal with that price. For that matter, we still have a minimum of 5 years before anyone would even be faced with that decision,

David Beale · Feb 24, 2015

Fascinating. How many people still think the PIP is an EV. It is not. It is a hybrid that can EV for a short distance. The standard Prius can only EV in "limp mode", no speed, no power.

Technology does march on, but we're not there yet. Unless you are stubborn enough to insist on EV at any cost! Hope you can afford a $100,000 car!

And here in Edmonton, lots of luck. An EV doesn't work too well where there is winter. Which is why just about all manufacturers don't offer them here.

Jeff N · Feb 24, 2015

It is going to be interesting to see how long these PHEV batteries last. Superficially, it seems like the 4.4 kwh battery in the PiP would have to really deteriorate before it reaches the point of no longer being able to support hybrid driving

Even if its rechargable EV miles were to drop down to 5-6 miles after 15 years to the point where people stop bothering to plug it in it would still be at least as capable as a new regular Prius battery.

70AARCUDA · Feb 24, 2015

$10,000 battery cost is about 1/3 of the total vehicles price! Can't say that about any current ICE vehicles...

inferno · Feb 24, 2015

David Beale said: ↑

Fascinating. How many people still think the PIP is an EV. It is not. It is a hybrid that can EV for a short distance. The standard Prius can only EV in "limp mode", no speed, no power.

Technology does march on, but we're not there yet. Unless you are stubborn enough to insist on EV at any cost! Hope you can afford a $100,000 car!

And here in Edmonton, lots of luck. An EV doesn't work too well where there is winter. Which is why just about all manufacturers don't offer them here.
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except here in Mass we are offered quite a bit (maybe second to california) in terms of EV options. Ford Fusion Energi, Leaf, PiP, even Tesla...

And it's interesting. The cold does effect the battery but I think it rebounds back, whereas severe effects the battery negatively without rebounding.

70AARCUDA · Feb 24, 2015

inferno said: ↑

And it's interesting. The cold does effect the battery but I think it rebounds back, whereas severe [ ??? ] effects the battery negatively without rebounding.
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Something seems to be missing here...what word did you inadvertently omit?

vinnie97 · Feb 24, 2015

Heat most likely, which adds another layer of EV concern for those of us in the desert. Tesla's cooling apparatus seems to allay any such fears...Nissan's? Not so much.

It was interesting to read above that the traction battery on a Gen1 Prius in apparently northern CA "only" made it to 218,000 miles. What happened to the other almost 300,000 those Canadian taxis are achieving? Lost to heat?

It also makes me wonder how many average miles Arizonans and southern Nevadans are achieving on their Gen 1 Prii.

inferno · Feb 24, 2015

70AARCUDA said: ↑

inferno said: ↑

And it's interesting. The cold does effect the battery but I think it rebounds back, whereas severe [ ??? ] effects the battery negatively without rebounding.
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Something seems to be missing here...what word did you inadvertently omit?
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Heat is the word..I'm curious to see how my 2012 pip and 2010 prius last as I am a severe battery abuser, trying to run ev whenver I can in all climates (-10, 100+ etc...)

70AARCUDA · Feb 24, 2015

Being in Tucson, AZ, I was well aware of the Prius "heat-vs-battery" problem, so we'll see for ourselves with our Prius.

Tideland Prius · Feb 24, 2015

David Beale said: ↑

Fascinating. How many people still think the PIP is an EV. It is not. It is a hybrid that can EV for a short distance. The standard Prius can only EV in "limp mode", no speed, no power.

Technology does march on, but we're not there yet. Unless you are stubborn enough to insist on EV at any cost! Hope you can afford a $100,000 car!

And here in Edmonton, lots of luck. An EV doesn't work too well where there is winter. Which is why just about all manufacturers don't offer them here.
Click to expand...

When I was in the focus group on the PiP and they were talking about the heater for the PHV test cars, I asked them about cold weather performance for the heater (i.e. how cold before it would be useless). Toyota asked, "how cold are you talking about?" and I replied, "-40" and there was (briefly) stunned silence, followed by "where the heck do you live?".

bisco · Feb 24, 2015

well said.

4th generation coming 2015!

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