4th generation coming 2015!

Honda like Ford is being accused of false mileage claims by CR and Fuelly has the accord Hybrid as low 40's City MPG. I assume Honda will be handing out rebate checks as well? Yes 50 MPG City and a PZEV rating is the benchmark, something Smelly Diesels will never achieve.

Honda was handicapped from the beginning for pushing the series IMA (Mild) hybrid design for so long. This latest Honda design iteration is innovative, but really is a dance around the gen 3 Toyota HSD Patent. I can't wait to see the 4th Gen HSD as the benchmark for city MPG will move way north of 50 MPG and achieve a even higher PZEV score.

 

I think you are confused between gas consumption and fuel economy.

Putting more electric miles would decrease gas consumption (higher Cons MPG) but to increase the fuel economy, you need to increase efficiency.

Look at Ford Energi plugins. Despite bigger battery, HV operation has worse MPG efficiency.

 

Just looking at efficiency from capturing all kinetic possible as well as actually having a place to put electric storage created while ice is efficient to use later when ice is not efficient at the lower speeds.

 

Kinetic energy can only be captured after being created by the ICE. Simple, isn't it?

 

In his defense, WS understands this. He is under the impression that a larger battery would improve overall ICE efficiency, and capture enough otherwise wasted kinetic energy to make the larger battery worthwhile. Honestly, it is not a bad hypothesis, and just the fact that Wayne Brown thought the idea had enough merit to actually hack his car to try it out says a lot.

Time (and the PiP) has shown that the notion is in general wrong. It has also been superceded by a larger ICE.
OTOH, if Honda had listened to WS in their IMA designs, I bet IMA would have fared a lot better than it did.

 

I encourage you to all ask if you're ever up Toyota doing maintenance and what not...It's hilarious that it becomes numb.

Salesperson says the new redesigned Prius is going to be out, either in the fall or early spring. I ask his source he says he picks up hints here and there (net) not the dealership.

Then, *a manager* comes up. I ask about the next version on the plugin he says it won't exist, at least no in MA because MA used up all their federal rebates for plugins, at least with Toyota. FCV will replace the plugins in MA for Toyota (what the hell?) Also, he 'confirmed' the next gen liftback will be out in the next MY.

The problem is, all these guys are serious. What the heck? Now I did hear about shortages in PiP because of halt production for the 2014 model, at least in MA it was a set amount. But honestly, would they take a state out of the equation because Toyota doesn't believe in plugins? What!?

Maybe I'm done writing after a visit because this is just too ridiculous!

 

What indeed. If you would care to write a sentence I can follow, I'll be happy to agree that it is ridiculous.

 

I figure it out: he's saying if one of the United States no longer gets the Prius, etc etc.

What was the context of "will be out in the next MY", for that matter? Is that another State?? Month??

 

MY=Model Year

 

It's quite simple!

Everytime you brake or coast but have no place to put the energy you instantly become a "non" hybrid car merely riding off the past benefits of when you "were" a hybrid and could capture lost energy.

Whenever your cruising at 70mph where the ice is forced to run regardless of what's in the battery, it's a waste not to steal away a little extra power for later... But you can't because the battery is full!

While running in that full state, when you have another opportunity to save kinetic energy, the prius will actually "waste" and throw away the power to prevent overcharging the battery by respinning the engine without spark.
No matter how big the battery, this could potentially happen on a long enough trip but it would happen way less than it does now.

Allowing the ice to run at higher speeds like in the pip helps but it's pretty much moot till they fix it so you can use pure electricity with the ice off while at 70.mph.

Untill that happens we'll continue to play Patti - cake.

 

The beautiful aspect of electricity is that it CAN be stored (in batteries), whereas motion is darn hard to store, except maybe in coiled springs.

In the commercial world, GREED is good; in the hybrid automotive world, it's RECOVERY that is GOOD!

 

Yes it's amazing... It weighs nothing except for its home it must live in. "unless we induct"

Like I mentioned though. I have a battery that weighs nothing it seems in my prototype flashlight that packs a punch. Nuke battery?

 

Agree, but how many times it has occured, full battery?
Here in Portugal we have hilly roads, and in my trips, perhaps 50 times a year I get 80% SOC, ditching the "rest".
If I had a chance to get that extra 400Wh, it would represent about 20Kwh a year (2 gallons if efficiency 35%). 15k mi/yr, it would increase from my 46MPG to 46.3MPG.
Not a big benefit, I'm sure.

 

Exactly.

If it was a big deal (which it is not), it would be much simpler and inexpensive to add a 'mountain mode' to the programming that reduced the target SOC.

 

If it's no big deal, kill your HV battery and see what happens

I know that's not a fair assessment because presently there is always plenty of battery to get up to speed before the ice takes it....

But what if we could use the same battery the pip uses, but leave programming in place to ignore plug in "since it's not there"

Bigger battery, can utilize more of its top and bottom end, and light.

For the sake of this conversation, I expect "at least" that should be in the Gen 4...heck we already have the battery slot for it!

 

Higher density and Li-iON for gen 4 will definitely improve MPG. Would also have larger trunk in this case. We should see more information I suspect in the fall

 

That would be HV mode, or charge sustain (CS) mode in EPA testing lingo.

 

Have y'all considered starting a separate thread on batteries sizes and cater to those that care about such things?

I'd like to read more about the "4th generation coming" .... especially as we get closer, and there seems to be a little more information "trickling" down.

 

Not a fair assessment, you bet.
Focus instead on a well designed HV battery capacity, which Prius had from the very beginning. Toyota engineering assessed that almost 2 decades ago. No change onwards, except if has a plug.

 

No change yet, because Toyota was harvesting profit selling decade old battery tech. They'll change it going forward because of pressure from EVs that will steal away customers.

They didn't change it in the past because they could get away with it as the market leader. It wasn't because they had picked such an optimal size that they had no reason to change, it was just the reason to stay the same outweighed the reason to change.

I have no doubt the battery pack size/type will change. The only questions are when and how much? OK you can ask about price vs cost as well but they'll hide the cost and the price will vary based on market demand so what they put in it will matter more to this conversation than what they try to charge.