4th generation coming 2015!

Hold on,

The PiP has about 6x the driver accessible battery capacity as a Prius, by EPA rolls right about the same fuel economy, but you still maintain an even BIGGER battery is a good idea for the non-plug Prius ?

Color me very, very, very, very skeptical.

 

Nope has to do with the limits of the battery power.

I have to set the record straight about the NiMH battery Toyota puts in practically every hybrid except for the PiP and Euro offerings. NiMH batteries are able to deliver more power in any single instance (~10C) than any LiIon battery (~3C) ....period (do not confuse energy/power density with instantaneous discharge). Actually any nickel based battery can, one of the reasons they are called power batteries while Lithium based batteries are called storage batteries. And the Toyota (Lexus) engineers know that. And based on their latest patents, they have found a way to have them deliver even more power for a lot longer. Gen 3 NiMH batteries are already cheaper by 75% (NiMH battery has high-volume future, says Toyota - SAE International) over the 1st generation ones. With the new NiMH design they can make the battery lighter, smaller, deliver more power and very important to general hybrid acceptance, cheaper. Also do not be surprised to find the power curve (SOC) shifted from the standard 40% to 81% to something much wider. Lexus has already stated (http://www.autonews.com/article/20130715/OEM06/307159920) they will stick with NiMH and wait for the next battery technology to leapfrog LiIon probably around 2020. Which, most of you know, will only be about 4 years away after the Gen IV Prius is revealed. As most of you have posted articles ad infinitum and I've read them, Toyota says NiMH still has a long life ahead of it and they are still investing in R&D on NiMH.

 

I very rarely have the problem of a full battery not being able to take some regen.
The real problem is running out of battery and needing the engine to charge it. A bigger battery would simply use its extra capacity and then be in the same boat as the smaller battery. Note: PiP doesn't get much better mpg in hybrid mode than the regular Prius.

 

Yep, the PiP is pretty good proof that a bigger battery will not translate into better fuel economy, all else being equal.

However, it would have more reserve for hill climbing. The Prius control strategy is to keep the battery SOC around 50 - 60%. Starting from 50% of a bigger battery is more reserve than 50% of a smaller battery. Toyota chose to improve the 'long climb' scenario with a bigger engine. From experience I can say that low battery situations are much more common in my G2 Prius than my G3 vagon -- pretty remarkable, given the heavier vagon. The 1.8L ICE is quite an engine.

 

It's not a big battery and it's all how you program it to charge "or not"

If the pip battery is programmed to keep room available for plug in charge, its no more efficient than non plug in except that it's LiIon and they don't have to reserve much headroom for life longevity.

I haven't driven a pip yet and I've been out of the loop for a while but you guys telling me on a 500 mile trip with no plug in stops it will allow you to fill the battery on regen and high rpm ICE like a non plug in prius will ?

If not the larger battery is of no use and they "expect" you to charge it.

Is there a switch you can flip to tell it to go to non-pip mode?

That's what it needs.

 

Why isn't there more discharge and tork in the NiMH hybrids then? While other plugins claim faster, better acceleration etc? Toyota could've just made a PiP that maybe has 2x the KWh hours by putting NiMH in the PiP, instead of 12 miles EPA EV it might've been 8, but however instead of $29k for a base model, maybe it would've been $26k. Why didn't they do that?

And they did test a double battery configuration...

I don't think the NiMH worked well in the EV scenario. Now LiON and a supercapacitor, might be a different story, but that's still half a decade down the road for production

 

They babied the NiMH too much and the inverter was only designed for the narrow range they gave. Even their engineers admitted they babied the battery more than necessary. I believe they'll fix that in the new Prius or they wouldn't have suggested an AWD.

 

Do you understand the 'c' measurement ?
It means that max discharge is that factor multiplied by the battery capacity.

Assuming same voltage (is that true?), and a five times larger battery in the PiP
The Prius will be 10x
While the PiP will be 3x * 5 = 15x

My understanding (limited for sure) is that Li-x was chosen for the PiP because of its superior volume/capacity compared to NiMH. Same reason the 7-seater Prius vagon has Li-x.

 

I'm thinking AWD in the Li-ion version.

Imagine, same capacity as current Prius (maybe a little more) - you'd be able to fit a small eWD motor in the back because there would be space thanks to saved space by doing Li-ION

PiP had a small NiMH Plus LiON. Yes it saves space, but look at Tesla, surely they've done their research (yes all electric...fine...) but then look at every plugin on the market. None use NiMH. Surely they must have tested that and other battery configurations.

Now LiON has different configurations within, not all are created equal, especially from the auto makers

 

Inferno,
Li-x in EVs is a matter of patents and space packaging.

You asked why the Prius does not have considerably more electric torque than the PiP. The answer (above explained) is the much smaller capacity battery.

 

@inferno
The standard Prius Liftback has a 1.3kWh battery, right?

And the PiP has a 4.4kWh battery, right?

Yet both are limited to 36 hp maximum (subtract ICE HP @98 from total of 134) from the battery.

 

LiIon beats hands down on ability to discharge and charge faster. Don't need to preserve wasted headroom for longevity and can discharge much deeper without harm...

Nimh favor is it's history and LiIon has several generations now each getting better but it's like nitroglycerin verses dynamite... LiIon has More dense energy but problems if not handled correctly.

I have a proto flashlight with a battery called a "nuke" that can discharge extremely fast and charge all the way back up in 20 minutes...

Would this help in a non pip hybrid? No except they are crazy light.

But Toyota can't run bleeding edge stuff like tesla without charging like tesla..... But less face it.. Nimh is old technology that's inferior.. Even the power tools have gone away from it.

I would own a tesla if there was a backup plan... Even a small ice just to charge while I'm out if the car in a restaurant etc or on a job... But I routinely drove 250 - 300+ miles a day when I work so no buffer too risky.

The Gen 4 needs
1. Pip with option to use in non pip mode to utilize battery more as when on long trips with no recharge opportunities.
2. Larger battery liion
3. Power mode that truly gives power instead of adjusting pedal sensitivity alone even if at the expense of mpg.
The competition has the edge, we should have a choice as to how to utilize our system.

My Avalon blows away my gen3 prius in performance and it's a full size luxury car that still gets great gas mileage... Bigger engine the answer?

While the Avalon does have a 2.5 liter it's way heavier....

Starting 2013 they reprogrammed the Avalon to allow more performance.

They need to do the same " with a switch " and the prius even with its 1.8 would be spunky.

I'm not saying it's a dog, it's no slouch and I've argued that many times... I never find myself thinking I need more power to be safe...

But it's a feel thing.

Not only would it appeal to the younger demographic but the older middle age crazy guy that considers saying "screw mpg" and get something sporty and fun to drive.

Maybe my motorcycle has spoiled me... ☺

 

Why Toyota Delayed the All-New 2016 Prius (TM)

 

Its amazing how little information there is in this great article in the way of news, or could it just be that we at priuschat are so well informed and well ahead of the common motoring journalist?

 

I think the secret to leveraging more regenerative power is increasing a bit of everything.

1. Hold more energy in the HV system by way of higher capacity batteries
2. Shift more braking force onto alternators by reducing friction brake force profile
3. Improve power movement efficiency in the electrical system by reducing losses
4. Design every component in EV system to handle more current

There will be more but essentially, the idea is to shift up every parameter on the HV side such that it plays a bigger part in propelling the car. The result will be improved performance as well as EV range. I think Toyota will try to keep the ratios between the various parameters relatively unchanged but will attempt to enhance all of them together if that makes sense.

 

In brevity: RECOVER more, USE less...energy.

 

THAT WOULD BE AN OUTSTANDING SLOGAN FOR ANY NUMBER OF COMPANIES. PROTECT THE QUOTE AND SELL IT.

 

"You read it here first folks!" (Ha,ha)